Meeting on 2009-05-29
Claude Desmoulins: Delia, if you'll touch the recorder box to consent, we can start the meeting.
Claude Desmoulins: No problem.
Claude Desmoulins: Just glad you made it so we have quorum.
Claude Desmoulins: Today's agenda items are the much delayed Dean election and a discussion of the enforcement of SC decisions.
Delia Lake: ok
Claude Desmoulins: First the matter of electing a dean, which should have happened in March.
Claude Desmoulins: Are there any nominations?
Claude Desmoulins looks in Delia's general direction.
Claude Desmoulins: ...and wonders how long we might sit here 
Claude Desmoulins notes that we just lost our quorum
Claude Desmoulins: Welcome back
Claude Desmoulins: Back to the question of who is willing to be dean
Delia Lake: ty. sorry about that. I had a blue screen crash and am now on a different laptop
Delia's translator: dad. Lo siento. Tuve un accidente de pantalla azul y ahora estoy en otro ordenador port?til
Delia Lake: I was starting to say that I would be very pleased if you would remain as Dean, Claude
Claude Desmoulins: How did I know you would say that?
Claude Desmoulins: Despite the fact that I seem to have trouble pulling a quorum together, I'm willing to keep at it.
Delia Lake: thank you.
Claude Desmoulins: Now on to enforcement.
Claude Desmoulins: The approved petition procedures identify two types of actions for which someone can petition the SC for redress.
Claude Desmoulins: 1. The government creates an act contrary to the constitution.
Delia Lake: yes
Claude Desmoulins: 2. Someone violates a "rule" (law, covenant)
Claude Desmoulins: In the first case, I imagine the SC were they to agree with the petition would simply annul the act. My recollection is that precendent does not always compel the undoing of actions taken however.
Claude Desmoulins: Although I
Claude Desmoulins: would need tyo spend lots of time digging through transcripts for the records.
Delia Lake: I was thinking that also
Claude Desmoulins: What if someone violates a rule? Is an order to "stop doing that"enforced by the executive all that a petitioner can ask for?
Delia Lake: good question. In sl, people cannot do some of the physical damage to others that people do in rl. but I think we need to ask if "stop doing that" is always sufficient if damage has been done to someone
Claude Desmoulins: What might be an example of where stopping isn't enough?
Claude Desmoulins: There also tends to be wide latitude given to those who act in good faith. To what extend does a fine system, if it comes to pass, discourage people from participating for fear it will cost them $L later if they mess up something.
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Delia Lake: perhaps false accusations or falsified evidence that damaged someone's reputation and standing in the community by raising questions of trustworthiness
Claude Desmoulins: Good point.
Claude Desmoulins: It brings me back to the question of what kind of damage (other than reputational) can be done here.
Claude Desmoulins: How does one then convert that reputational damage to a $L value?
Delia Lake: hmmm........thinking
Delia Lake: hi Jamie
Claude Desmoulins: Good afternoon.
Jamie Palisades smiles, wonders how to value defamation in SL politics, premised as it must be on the assupmtion that avatar reps have a baseline positive value ...
Delia Lake: I don't know that reputational damage can be assuaged by $$. public apology might be more appropriate
Claude Desmoulins: I'm starting to have something coalesce in my head to the effect that if we were to have a $L enforcement mechanism that demonstrable untruth/malice might be the only thing that should trigger it.
Delia Lake: maybe not a baseline positive value, Jamie, but certainly a built positive value
Jamie Palisades: We had a stirring little chat in RA a while ago about what remedies, in fatc, are available under CDS law for violation of CDS law. I believe Gwyneth's view when she was the SC, and cared, was that "the SC can do anything", chuckle
Jamie Palisades: i follow that distinction Delia - but that makes the judicial problem worse 
you have to decide what my increment is over zero, before assessing any clami of damages i make
Delia Lake: I am not of the belief that the SC can do anything
Claude Desmoulins: Personally I think the RA might provide some guidance here, but that if there aren't some remedies, what use is writing down all this law?
Jamie Palisades: indeed
Jamie Palisades: i;d always assumed being removed from citizenship, sim access, and or office, were the default sanction c hoices, myself
Claude Desmoulins: That doesn't give one much nuance.
Delia Lake: I would think those would be some of the punshments available
Claude Desmoulins: Esp. in the case of a non public official.
Delia Lake: but I agree, Claude, that we need some less drastic choices too
Claude Desmoulins: I would think banning and or citizenship revocation would be at the top of the scale.
Jamie Palisades: indeed - and so with little nuance, we have only a cudgel -- suiggesting that the LITTLE laws could only be fined .. or are not enforced
Claude Desmoulins: We need somethin in between a Colbertian wag of the finger and expulsion.
Jamie Palisades: however it;s a bit like poliicing
Jamie Palisades: there's ponly so much effort that goes ibto governing
Jamie Palisades: I have maybe four peopel who give substantial time to CDS
Jamie Palisades: six or seve4n, to be generous
Jamie Palisades: and anyother ,aybe ten who pop in twice o month on the average
Jamie Palisades: so how much enforcement will that much manpower in the aggregate spport?
Claude Desmoulins: In many cases, I would think we could just tell someone to "do the right thing"
Claude Desmoulins: In some ways that is what the petition process might help.
Delia Lake: more like a warning for a traffic violation in rl?
Claude Desmoulins: When someone gets bothered enough about something, they raise it with the SC
Claude Desmoulins: Obviating the need for traffic cops to wander around looking for violations.
Jamie Palisades has indicated consent to be recorded.
Jamie Palisades: right - a low level of defauly opportunity to resolve conflictsm one hopes, obviates a not of proactive enfrocement
Claude Desmoulins: The question in my mind is whether or not the SC should levy $L penalties or not.
Jamie Palisades smile s- sorry for just jumping ini, hope I am not clogging your planned agenda with idle chat. When it's appropriate though, at a topic break, I did have an informational question or tpo to raise
Claude Desmoulins: If not, then what if anything goes between a sim ban and a wag of the finger on the penalty scale.
Claude Desmoulins: The RA could if they chose of course clarify this.
Claude Desmoulins: But lacking said, what does the SC do if it gets a petition?
Claude Desmoulins: Noted, Jamie.
Jamie Palisades D it does justice, as it sees fit, from which there in no appeal, Claude, except in RL terrestrial courts or to LL
Delia Lake: we don't have a lot of other choices that I can think of. so to have the right to levy a fine would give some intermediary penalty
Claude Desmoulins: All the same, i think that process should occur in some established public framework.
Claude Desmoulins: So does this essentially leave us with a 3 tier system.
Delia Lake: for sure
Claude Desmoulins: Maybe 4
Claude Desmoulins: 1 admonish
Claude Desmoulins: 2 fine
Claude Desmoulins: 3 ban (perhaps time limited)
Claude Desmoulins: 4 revoke citizenship (again perhaps for a set time period)
Claude Desmoulins: If that's the case, the only other question is should someone submitting a petition be required to ask for a remedy rather than having the SC pull it out of the air.
Claude Desmoulins: I'm inclined to put that burden on those petitioning the SC.
Delia Lake: we could lay out general categories of grievances for which each of the 4 penalties might be appropriate
Jamie Palisades: that's certainly economical, claude - let someone who believes you should do something support their reason for the suggested penalty
Jamie Palisades: of course
Jamie Palisades: uinlike western RL courts
Delia Lake: for instance, the penalty for griefing is in generalto be banning
Jamie Palisades: I am not sure a petitioner has much aaccess to the collected hisstory of the Star Chamber's reme4dial activiy here
Delia Lake: to give the petitioners some guidelines
Jamie Palisades: so a good faith petitioner seeking re-dressed, who is not F.I.C. might have a tough time forming an argument
Claude Desmoulins: There are transcripts, we nearly need someone to collate them into an institutional history
Claude Desmoulins: *merely
Delia Lake: that would be very helpful, yes
Claude Desmoulins: So I'd like to put the following into a motion.
Claude Desmoulins: The four tier system. Those submitting petitions must specify desired redress - SC to develop guidelines on what gets what penalty absent superceding action from RA
Claude Desmoulins: Delia?
Jamie Palisades: oops: she seems to have crashed
Claude Desmoulins: Delia has disappeared.
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie what else did you need to mention.
Claude Desmoulins: ?
Jamie Palisades: i wished to ask two things, thanks
Jamie Palisades: one is to confirm who has been seated on the SC, and which if any nominees are still in queue and unseated
Claude Desmoulins: In the SC are myself, Delia, Aliasi Stonebender, and Dnate Mars. To my knowledge, nobody is in the pipeline, but I intend to put a request for nominations out ahead of the nest meeting.
Claude Desmoulins: *next
Jamie Palisades: ah good, thanks
Jamie Palisades: there is no attendance requirement, correct? no number of absences that would remove a member automatyically?
Claude Desmoulins: No
Claude Desmoulins: WB
Jamie Palisades: I might suiggest one, then, and will ask for the comments of SC members
Jamie Palisades: and I will asve my second question, as Delia has returned, thx
Claude Desmoulins: Delia did you see...
Claude Desmoulins: The four tier system. Those submitting petitions must specify desired redress - SC to develop guidelines on what gets what penalty absent superceding action from RA
Delia Lake: I'm sorry. I seem to be having connection problems today
Delia's translator: Lo siento. Me parece estar teniendo problemas de conexi?n de hoy
Notary Desk: Passed self test.
Delia Lake: yes. I think the 4 tier system you propose is good. as we work with it we may find it needs some changes, and maybe this will be enough
Claude Desmoulins: Can we consider that approved?
Delia Lake: yes
Claude Desmoulins: Jamie has mentioned the possibility of automatic suspension/expulsion for SC members who miss a certain number of meetings.
Claude Desmoulins: And has asked for comments.
Jamie Palisades: just as a passing thought for future discussion.
Jamie Palisades: i suppose one key issue will be the track record on how eaily quorum is reached
Claude Desmoulins: Quorum is dean +1.
Claude Desmoulins: Reached infrequently.
Claude Desmoulins: Before I would be comfortable with an automatic policy, I'd like to see at least 6 or seven on SC.
Jamie Palisades D So AWOL deans would be a bigger problem that AWOL members. Noted, thanks. should I pose that second question now, then? Can't quite tell if your motion has been put to rest
Claude Desmoulins: Which would also help quorum I would hope.
Delia Lake: that makes sense to me. we cannot have a functional judiciary if most of the members do not show. also it is not fair to the community to have a judiciary with only a couple of members
Claude Desmoulins: Yes the motion has been addressed.
Claude Desmoulins: So you can move to your second question.
Jamie Palisades: then my other question is merely whether the SC has chatted with FlyingRoc or Jon or anyone about prepareing for the next election in what, 6 weeks ro so?
Delia Lake: I have not, no
Claude Desmoulins: Not as yet, but I plan to IM Jon shortly.
Jamie Palisades: we'll need an announced schedule and all that, as usual
Claude Desmoulins: Was waiting to see who was dean.
Claude Desmoulins: What Rose posted to the forums looks correct to me.
Jamie Palisades: and depending on whether the TRA agrees to make an offer to Al Andalaus, we may face headcounting issues
Claude Desmoulins: It's all set out in constitution.
Claude Desmoulins: Since you brought it up.
Jamie Palisades: it;s also been suggsted to me (small smile) that if I do not count heads the way CSDF does, adding AA to the RA woudl be unconstutitional so perhaps we will speak of it again
Claude Desmoulins: I would mention that the constitution as it stands doesn't seem to me to address anything like temporary RA seats
Jamie Palisades: the constitution wodpes not (so far as my first read tells me) directly address how to handle large mergers
Jamie Palisades: indeed
Delia Lake: the way the CSDF does??
Jamie Palisades: so, ff unaddressed, are we free to act in a manner not inconsistent? that will be the questio I think
Claude Desmoulins: In which case a constitutional amendment ahead of the merger layng out the process would save hassle for all, IMHO.
Claude Desmoulins: *laying
Jamie Palisades: a few people who occasionally pop into CDS to defend their views have suggested such
Delia Lake: say more, Jamie please
Jamie Palisades: delia, i suggested that if both sides agree to merge
Claude Desmoulins: You would also have RA members albeit temporary ones chosen in a way not specified in the present constitution.
Jamie Palisades: it woudl be unrealistic and curlike for us to expect AA (same size as us roughly) to have no representation
Jamie Palisades: so
Jamie Palisades: what do we do between elections?
Jamie Palisades: just as a passing thought for future discussion.
Jamie Palisades: i suppose one key issue will be the track record on how eaily quorum is reached
Claude Desmoulins: Quorum is dean +1.
Claude Desmoulins: Reached infrequently.
Claude Desmoulins: Before I would be comfortable with an automatic policy, I'd like to see at least 6 or seven on SC.
Jamie Palisades D So AWOL deans would be a bigger problem that AWOL members. Noted, thanks. should I pose that second question now, then? Can't quite tell if your motion has been put to rest
Claude Desmoulins: Which would also help quorum I would hope.
Delia Lake: that makes sense to me. we cannot have a functional judiciary if most of the members do not show. also it is not fair to the community to have a judiciary with only a couple of members
Claude Desmoulins: Yes the motion has been addressed.
Claude Desmoulins: So you can move to your second question.
Jamie Palisades: then my other question is merely whether the SC has chatted with FlyingRoc or Jon or anyone about prepareing for the next election in what, 6 weeks ro so?
Delia Lake: I have not, no
Claude Desmoulins: Not as yet, but I plan to IM Jon shortly.
Jamie Palisades: we'll need an announced schedule and all that, as usual
Claude Desmoulins: Was waiting to see who was dean.
Claude Desmoulins: What Rose posted to the forums looks correct to me.
Jamie Palisades: and depending on whether the TRA agrees to make an offer to Al Andalaus, we may face headcounting issues
Claude Desmoulins: It's all set out in constitution.
Claude Desmoulins: Since you brought it up.
Jamie Palisades: it;s also been suggsted to me (small smile) that if I do not count heads the way CSDF does, adding AA to the RA woudl be unconstutitional so perhaps we will speak of it again
Claude Desmoulins: I would mention that the constitution as it stands doesn't seem to me to address anything like temporary RA seats
Jamie Palisades: the constitution wodpes not (so far as my first read tells me) directly address how to handle large mergers
Jamie Palisades: indeed
Delia Lake: the way the CSDF does??
Jamie Palisades: so, ff unaddressed, are we free to act in a manner not inconsistent? that will be the questio I think
Claude Desmoulins: In which case a constitutional amendment ahead of the merger layng out the process would save hassle for all, IMHO.
Claude Desmoulins: *laying
Jamie Palisades: a few people who occasionally pop into CDS to defend their views have suggested such
Delia Lake: say more, Jamie please
Jamie Palisades: delia, i suggested that if both sides agree to merge
Claude Desmoulins: You would also have RA members albeit temporary ones chosen in a way not specified in the present constitution.
Jamie Palisades: it woudl be unrealistic and curlike for us to expect AA (same size as us roughly) to have no representation
Jamie Palisades: so
Jamie Palisades: what do we do between elections?
Claude Desmoulins: Do you have schedule preferences?
Delia Lake: usually Monday afternoons or Friday mornings would work best for me
Claude Desmoulins: Fridays are problematic in summer.
Delia Lake: true
Claude Desmoulins: I'll see if we cant do a meeting mid June.
Claude Desmoulins: Please watch email.
Claude Desmoulins: May we adjourn?
Delia Lake: yes. thank you, Claude
Jamie Palisades: Nice to see you both, cheers