RA Town Hall Meeting 2 May 2010: Transcript - Part 3

[mikeloserevi]

[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: All would be as "opaque" as VDI of course — no reason to trust any of them!
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: thing is, this is in the 'too hard' box because first of all, it's hard and secondly, we have been led to believe for several months that the AA citizens are revolting (if you see what i mean)
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: oof, Imotali!
[10:41] Pip Torok: hi Imotali!!!
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: sorry kas
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: lol
[10:41] anissa2008 GossipGirl: hi everyone
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As said, i just need to make a call to Rose
[10:41] Sonja Strom: hi anissa
[10:41] Sonja Strom: welcome
[10:41] Imotali Antiesse: over here anis
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The question is — would that be acceptable?
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi: I don't think the letter of the merger agreement is really is question
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: hi anissa
[10:42] Danton Sideways: Having rl people that you can ientify is BETTER, in my opinion
[10:42] anissa2008 GossipGirl shouts: where?
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: and, um, Gwyn, you are saying you would be OK if a US NY nonprofit is used, as long as it was yours? sorry, I missed the point maybe?
[10:42] Lilith Ivory: HI Imotali, hi anissa
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: are we really talking about who gets control here?
[10:42] Imotali Antiesse: hei Lil
[10:42] Keila Forager: Sounds like it Jamie..
[10:42] Jamie Palisades: can it be as simple as "mine mine. no, mine mine"?
[10:42] Keila Forager:
[10:42] Jamie Palisades:
[10:42] Mikelo Serevi: yes, the NP is rather a control issue, esp if they have ben created already
[10:42] Delia Lake: and Gwyn that you "have" a NY nonprofit? as a non US citizen?
[10:42] Tor Karlsvalt: I don't think the merger is too hard or bad. The "friendly nation" idea is my fallback postition tho
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In my point is — if any citizen wishes want to be part of the non-profit, are they allowed to? (legally, administratively, practically...)
[10:43] Jamie Palisades: Soooooo Gwyn would like one from Gwyn better, and it woudl be safe and acceptabl,e but the one with Rose and Delia isn;t? enlighten me
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or will we have to say: "sorry, you can't be part of it, it's too complicated"
[10:43] Delia Lake is not sure how VDI is opaque either. it is Rose, me and Micael under our rl names
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: I think this is possible, there are web hosting co-ops that have international memberships
[10:43] Keila Forager: and shouldn't the NP stand for what CDS is about..
[10:43] Danton Sideways: Sudane is opaque
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "opaque" in the sense that we don't know if anyone else can be part of it, Delia, or what steps to take to be part of it
[10:44] Keila Forager: Not just any old NP
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, yes, well, I'm turning the tables here and suggest looking it from the other angle.
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn, honestly, i see any such corp as being excatly like Sudane - to meet CDS' needs - in the sense that it would need to be a long term trusted "trustee" kind of thing ABOVE politics
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, that seems a little disingenuous, if you have working experience with US nonprofits
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just with two really, Kas
[10:44] Jamie Palisades: i thikn "what form do you trust" is a fake issue, and WHO will you trust as the real one
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One is tin, the other huge.
[10:44] Delia Lake: that's not opaque, language issue maybe
[10:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *tiny
[10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: If you ask me, the idea of a corp owning CDS is long overdue.
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: the law's not terribly complex, and it doesn't change much at all
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Jamie. So it's not the form, but the people?
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: look, we've been told the NP is a big issue because it's evidence that 'CDS is not holding up its side of the bargain'
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, like Pat says
[10:45] Ranma Tardis: I admit to having no experience with non profit, I am a part of the excetive branch of the USGov
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: are we agreed that it is not such a big deal after all?
[10:45] Jamie Palisades: Well, you said Gwyn's US NP is OK, and Rose's isn;t
[10:45] Keila Forager: 5. A new nonprofit organization shall be established to be the sim holder of record, using two nominees from CDS and two nominees from AA as the nominal organizers, and the CDS chancellor (by virtue of office) as a presiding director [or manager, or such other similar arrangement as applicable local law may permit, in a nonprofit company form reasonably acceptable to AA management and the CDS government. That organization shall have the purpose of reporting to, taking direction from and managing for the benefit of the CDS government.
[10:45] Delia Lake: other people could be elected to the dVDI boar
[10:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's why we're trying to figure out, where is the "problem" really.
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: yes delia, that would be a way forward
[10:45] Danton Sideways: any people - as long as we trust them
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: provided they are US citizens
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: probably
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Danton I would say, any people, as long as we can elect them in and out of office
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: you don't really have to trust them - IRS agents handle that problem for you :p
[10:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* @ Kas
[10:46] Danton Sideways: yes appoint them or cancel
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: May I mention a specific concrete problem? No, Pat, nonUS citizens can be on a NP in the US. like Gwyn's. But here's an issue: SUDANE (nice person, trustworthy, also Gwyn's bus partner) does not WANT to be on any nonprofit boards. Period.
[10:46] Ranma Tardis: beware they are mean
[10:46] Danton Sideways: as an administrative measure
[10:46] Jamie Palisades: Sudane;s hard to replace!
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: if we are agreed this is not such a problem, can we move on?
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: ok pat
[10:47] Ranma Tardis: the issue is for a complete merger the CDS has to become a non profit
[10:47] Jamie Palisades: a solution that means we have to lose Sudane as a EO would be a big pain in the rear for CDS
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: no, Ranma, that's just wrong
[10:47] Delia Lake: Gwyn, i'm getting confused he re. you say you don't know if non US citizens can be on boards of US nonprofits, or if there can be anonymous board members yet you said earlier that you HAVE a nonprofit in New York? what am i missing to make sense of this?
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not quite, Ranma. It just needs to create a new one for the AA sims.
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: that's another issue ranma. can we be both?
[10:48] Danton Sideways: There could also be differential tier
[10:48] Ranma Tardis: it has nothing to do with who is a citizen of what country
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt: Ranma, CDS doesn't have to be NP.
[10:48] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, I can't see any reason why not
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have access to one, Delia, in the sense that it is a nonprofit that would definitely be able to accept the AA sims. but it's not "my" non-profit at all.
[10:48] Danton Sideways: since it is lower in np AA
[10:48] Ranma Tardis: the people in the cds are making profit
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm not a member in that one
[10:48] Mikelo Serevi: I'm not getting a cut, ranma
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: there are some potential problems with having dual systems. if the RL non-profit takes direction from the CDS, should non-AA citizens get to determine who the board members are?
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: do you get a salary?
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, also, it's a specific nonprofit that won't have a discount from LL. They asked, and LL refused to grant them one. But that's a secondary issue
[10:49] Jamie Palisades: damn, sound like i missed a great graft opportunity
[10:49] Kaseido Quandry: Salary is not profit, Ranma
[10:49] Jayme Mistwalker: doesnt the profit help fund entertainment?
[10:49] Delia Lake: ok. so can you enlighten us as to what "have access to one" means? i guess i could say that i have access to other nonprofits also
[10:49] Mikelo Serevi: no salary, though I get a stipend for being archivist
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: you voted yourself that money
[10:49] Pip Torok: Ranma I'll keep saying it: the CDS is here to survive financially, not "make a profit" ....
[10:49] Jayme Mistwalker: it's not like the RA is out buying gucci
[10:49] Mikelo Serevi: I actually didn't want the stipend
[10:49] Ranma Tardis: the reserve is too high
[10:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Access means just that — I can ask them on the CDS/AA behalf to accept the island transfer
[10:50] Kaseido Quandry: let's foucs here?
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: Well, that's different from making a profit, since there's no distribution
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: ok kas
[10:50] Tor Karlsvalt: Good I hate Gucci
[10:50] Danton Sideways: CDS members accept higher prices and a reserve
[10:50] Danton Sideways: *old CDS
[10:50] Jamie Palisades: not sure that's enough Gwyn. Do you TRUST them to keep CDS property without trashing it? Like the Ulrikaquake
[10:50] Ranma Tardis: we need to do this for wanting to do this and not monatary gain
[10:51] Tor Karlsvalt: oh boy, here comes Ulrika.
[10:51] Mikelo Serevi: Yeah, I'm uncomfortable about having a simple transfer to an arbitrary corp
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the focus mostly is: how important it is for the merger to have a different NP to hold the AA sims; then: if the sims are transferred to another nonprofit, where should it be located and is *any* citizen allowed to be a member and be elected to its board? And finally: can *existing* nonprofits absorb the AA sims or do we need to create a new nonprofit for that?
[10:51] Delia Lake: and if this unknown nonprofit were willing to accept an island, or 6 of them, would it be made known what this nonprofit is and who runs it?
[10:51] Jamie Palisades: Tor, it;s relevant only in that it illustrates that a one avatar system has a heavy risk
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie: I trust them as much as I trust VDI
[10:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Delia.
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: annd how do we get to a place where CDS as a whole could trust oe?
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: one
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: I can't fathom the requirement for *another* nonprofit; easy enough to replace the VDI board
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: or can we?
[10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: As a newcommer, after hearing all the Ulrika stories, I am MORE comfortable with a corp than with a single AV.
[10:52] Ranma Tardis: please stop bashing my friend Ulrika or should we call her snowflake?
[10:52] Jamie Palisades: (Though Pat points out, NOT needed to resolve this term)
[10:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas: yes. I wonder if that's an alternative suggestion that would please everyone.
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: and, as we don't need to resolve this term, i suggest we move on
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: and if the problem is people wanting to be on the board while remaining anonymous, that *is* a problem under US law
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: these ideas need quite a bit of discussion
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: i'll paste s.4 in three parts
[10:53] Ranma Tardis: will not float my friend Pat
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: That's good point, kas
[10:53] Kaseido Quandry: I can see how it could be done, but it'd be fairly expensive
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They might be able to do so by proxy, Kas, but then it raises the next issue — would be allow citizens to vote by proxy?
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: apologies to anyone seeing lots of text fly by
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: And this is a practical point for transfer to another NP
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly
[10:53] anissa2008 GossipGirl: apology accepted:p
[10:53] Danton Sideways: My head spins
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: 4. The CDS RA will be increased by a number equal to the higher of
* (a) two, or
* (b) the number of additional members that would be added to the RA under CDS law by reason of the additional number of citizens added under Para 1 above.
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe anissa
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: In calculating that number, (a) each new CDS citizen from AA will be counted, plus (b) any "converting dual citizens." A "converting dual citizen" is a current CDS citizen who wishes to designate AA's sims as their primary residence within CDS; who does so by informing the CDS chancellor in writing within a reasonably set deadline; and who does not currently serve on the CDS RA.
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: The additional vacant RA positions will be filled by a process designated by AA management, consistent with AA law, from among persons who are (a) new CDS citizens from AA will be counted and (b) any "converting dual citizens." The newly selected RA members shall serve either (a)] the remainder of the current RA term [or (b), if they are selected less than one month prior to the closing date for RA candidacy in the next RA general election, for the remainder of the current term plus the next term.
[10:54] Kaseido Quandry: gwyn, that could be done in corporate bylaws - I don't see much problem
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: no probleme with any of this i assume?
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes)
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't think there's a problem with 4, no
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: nope
[10:54] Jamie Palisades: pat, seems to me that all of THAT one has worked out or become moot OK
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: okay, s5
[10:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We grumbled a bit at the beginning of the last term, but we pretty much accepted everything
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: 5. A new nonprofit organization shall be established to be the sim holder of record, using two nominees from CDS and two nominees from AA as the nominal organizers, and the CDS chancellor (by virtue of office) as a presiding director [or manager, or such other similar arrangement as applicable local law may permit, in a nonprofit company form reasonably acceptable to AA management and the CDS government. That organization shall have the purpose of reporting to, taking direction from and managing for the ben
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: or the benefit of the CDS government.
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: Patroklus can you make a notecard and send it to us?
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: The estate owner for the AA Sims for the first year will be nominated by AA, to serve until the eighth calendar day after the one year anniversary of the actual sim relocation, and afterwards by the usual CDS government methods. The AA EO must (a) act as an officer or agent of the new nonprofit entity; (b) agree to report to and take direction from the CDS government under the same terms as the current CDS EO, subject to the terms explicitly stated in this offer;
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: maybe we can read it at ease then
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: and (c) agree to cooperate with the affiliation or merger of the new nonprofit entity, with a later new CDS nonprofit organization, if at a later time the CDS by legislation elects to subject the ownership of its other CDS sims to control by a nonprofit organizations.
[10:55] Kaseido Quandry: arissa, the meger agreement is in the blue box
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: in the blue box arissa
[10:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (the notecard is on the light blue cube in front of Sonja, anissa)
[10:55] Jamie Palisades: anissa, it's all in the posted RA minutes etc
[10:55] anissa2008 GossipGirl: oh okay thanks
[10:55] Frances Ying: i have to go, bye everyone
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: thanks for coming, Frances!
[10:56] Object owned by Rose Springvale gave you 'final merger agt' ( http://slurl.com/secondlife/Locus%20Amoenus/115/163/23 ).
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: same issue as s.3 yes?
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: bye frances
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, here we have an *additional* problem. What happens if the Chancellor is not allowed/too complicated legally or administravely to be part of the board?
[10:56] Tor Karlsvalt: bye frances
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does that mean that a Chancellor that knows beforehand that they cannot be part of the board will not be allowed to run as a candidate?
[10:56] Jamie Palisades: Gwyn: then we have the wrong legal structure
[10:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ha
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, *tell me* these questions weren't raised and discussed when this thing was originally negotiated!
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: hey Solomon!
[10:57] Lilith Ivory: Hi Sol
[10:57] Jamie Palisades: which you yourself point out is not the case, my lil portugues buddy who runs US nonprofits
[10:57] Tor Karlsvalt: What prevents the Chancellor from being on the board?
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: kas, there were some, ahem, issues around discussing anything when this was passed
[10:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue is that *any* citizen should be able to run for Chancellor if they wish. This clause of the agreement would just give some citizens that right.
[10:57] Solomon Mosely waves, settling in
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: hi all
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: oh, on jamie's alp i see
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: Yeah, Pat claims that the evil nonCDSF RA and chancellor muzzles him they must have been pretty powerful folks
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and I don't *run* them lol — I'm just a member!)
[10:58] Jamie Palisades: like the chancellor would be, gwyn
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor: legal issues, for instance.
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Imagine that we have a Cuban or Chinese Chancellor
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... they might not be allowed to be part of the board of the NP
[10:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so they couldn't run for Chancellor
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: this got rammed through the RA with v little discussion. when qns were raised, we were told they were 'offensive'. it inhibited thorough discussion
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: .... thus limiting "running for Chancellor" as a privilege of some "selected few"
[10:59] Jamie Palisades: Drop the FUD gwyn can we agree that any leglal structure we use must accomodate any CDS-legal chancellor candidate, who must be able to sit on or place a rep on that board? Is say "rep" in case anonymity is an issue
[10:59] Keila Forager: But somehow it still got included as part of the agreement that past
[10:59] anissa2008 GossipGirl: that's not really democratic, no offense
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: that's true gwyn but... this is the agreement that RA made
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas.
[10:59] Ranma Tardis: which can be broken in July
[11:00] You decline The Blarney Stone Irish Bar - Du, Dublin (81, 103, 25) from A group member named Chuckie Breda.
[11:00] Jamie Palisades: as of today CDS can change the law and put anyone it wants on that silly VDI board, or move AA to a DIFFERENT board after June, no? Assuming you silly peoiple don;t destroy the merger before then
[11:00] Tor Karlsvalt: Isn't the board really going to be passive?
[11:00] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, yes
[11:01] Ranma Tardis: it is up to the people of AA to contnue or depart
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Depends on what "passive" means
[11:01] Mikelo Serevi: passive in theory
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: is it really going to be a problem if a very vew cannot be on the board?
[11:01] Jamie Palisades chuckles
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A typical example... imagine that the board decides to resell the land to, say, Desmond.
[11:01] Kaseido Quandry: all it can do is hold the property and conduct such activitiy as is appropriate for a 501(c)(3)
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is nothing in the merger agreement that prevents that from happening.
[11:01] Ranma Tardis: as always I refuse to give my quiet passive consent
[11:01] Tor Karlsvalt: I see G, but we are probably not likely to see that happen.
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well
[11:02] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, that would terminate the nonprofit status, and open the board members to civil and criminal charges
[11:02] Tor Karlsvalt: and Sudane could seel to Caladon now.
[11:02] Kaseido Quandry: that's more blue sky that Sundane wiping the sims. Do be real.
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why would that terminate the nonprofit status? They could sell the sims without profit
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that is a red herring.
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: Any board would have to vote.
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Surely nonprofits can get rid of their assets, and get a small fee to support their activities doing that.
[11:03] Tor Karlsvalt: three of the trustees would have to agree.
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: the purpose of the nonprofit, approved by the IRS, is to manage certain properties in Second Life and conduct educational and cutltural activities
[11:03] Patroklus Murakami: so, we're back to 'trust' again
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, Tor — and what's the problem with that?
[11:03] Mikelo Serevi: NPs can donate excess to other NPs
[11:03] Kaseido Quandry: to do otherwise opens the directors up to US legal charges
[11:03] Ranma Tardis: what if the citizens of AA want to remain non profit?
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well ok. So they could transfer it to another NP.
[11:04] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, a coporation can - a specific purpose 501(c)(3) cannot
[11:04] Tor Karlsvalt: I don't think three trustees wouls agree to sell the sims unless the RA instructed them too
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And I don't see why they couldn't agree on that
[11:04] Ranma Tardis: the RA has too much power
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[11:04] Kaseido Quandry: this is not a real issue.
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's another issue, Ranma...
[11:04] Ranma Tardis: it is the issue of freedom
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Kas... I'm glad you think that way, but the point is, it's really just a question to transfer trust.
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Kas. A corp would still be favorable to one AV having ALL the real power.
[11:05] Kaseido Quandry: no, Gwyn, it's not
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes it is
[11:05] Kaseido Quandry: one is a mater of trust, one is a matter of trust plus very vigorous enforcement of US law
[11:05] anissa2008 GossipGirl: i agree with ranma personally
[11:05] Tor Karlsvalt: that is it! We TRUST Sudane.
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Kas. Then it means that it *has* to be a US nonprofit then
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: or canadian law
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or a Canadian one.
[11:06] Ranma Tardis: also anything fincianal is done by people in the open, not doing so might bring up charges under the Patroit act
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: folks, we are at the two hour mark. i think we are adding to the box marked 'non-profit' issues
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: "Sudane is nice" is a very different thing from "Directors can go to RL jail"
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: i suggest we move on and complete consideration of all the merger agreement before we conclude
[11:06] Patroklus Murakami: okay?
[11:06] Kaseido Quandry: agreed
[11:06] Solomon Mosely: if this is such an issue, can't the exec and ra direct the NP board to modify the charter?
[11:06] Pip Torok: agreed
[11:06] Tor Karlsvalt: ok pat
[11:07] Kaseido Quandry: Solomon, yes!
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wait, Kas — the merger agreement says that the AA sims are going to be transferred to ANOTHER non-profit now Surely taht is allowed?
[11:07] Tor Karlsvalt: I think Gwyn wasn't here earlier.
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: okay, section 6 follows
[11:07] Patroklus Murakami: 6. CDS will open a funded local sim event programming panel, on the same terms to be used for other CDS communities, for the AA estate. CDS government and AA management each warrant that they are aware of no theme, feasibility or appropriateness issues with the cultural and event programming activities presently conducted on ther AA sims.
[11:07] Ranma Tardis: I feel like I am at a CDS meeting, am I the only AA citizen left?
[11:07] Jamie Palisades: amen: Gwyneth Llewelyn: .. lt's really just a question to transfer trust. .. will CDS every trust anyone other than the original folks who kicked out the last owners?
[11:07] Kaseido Quandry: Ranma, look over my head.
[11:07] Jamie Palisades: This is a CDS meeting/ CDS including AA -- until some of you undo that.
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: very funny, Jamie
[11:08] Ranma Tardis: two
[11:08] Jamie Palisades: Gwynnie, i am conpletely serious
[11:08] Solomon Mosely: actaually, a new np doesnt have to be formed, did you already cover that?
[11:08] Ranma Tardis: but you are a member of the cds too
[11:08] Jamie Palisades: i gave up power happily - that's how democraices work - maybe not social democracies?
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The you work under a delusion, and I'm afraid nothing in my power can change that
[11:08] Patroklus Murakami: yes solomon thanks
[11:08] Keila Forager: Seems to me you are all discussing an issue that was already voted on and approved. Shouldn't the issue be "yes" we can do or "no " we won't?
[11:08] Arria Perreault: I think we should decide that AA is only a geographical term ...
[11:08] Tor Karlsvalt: yes sol
[11:08] Kaseido Quandry: thank you Keila!
[11:08] Arria Perreault: we all are CDS citizen
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: i assume no problems with section 6?
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: this has happened, hasn't it?
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't think so. I thought this is pretty much what the regional committees are for
[11:09] Ranma Tardis: well speaking as a AA citizen and only a AA citizen, I am against the continuation of the merger. No amount of talk will change my mind
[11:09] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree AP. I wish we could all see ourselves as one group. Indeed many in AA were/are CDS.
[11:09] Patroklus Murakami: i'll post s.7
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: 7. This offer will remain open for 60 days from the date this resolution is adopted. AA may accept by its current EO so stating in writing, so long as:
(a) he/she confirms that a specific map of the combined CDS-AA sim territories, which has been approved by the RA, also is acceptable to AA; and
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, 7 is ok, Pat
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's "past tense"
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: (b) The CDS government and AA EO are satisfied, at the time of acceptance, that] a substantial number of AA residents have not indicated the intent to leave AA at the time of combination.
CDS and AA will submit a territory sim join request to Linden Lab, when and if that acceptance is received and those conditions are met] within the allotted time. [CDS will pay the applicable sim location transfer fees.
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: all of it happened
[11:10] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: s.8
[11:10] Ranma Tardis: I say to dual members enjoy being in the CDS without those who refuse to have anything to do with them
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we can go to 8
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: 8. CDS and AA agree that, on the one year anniversary of the actual sim relocation, and for seven calendar days thereafter:
(a) The AA EO may elect after consultation with AA citizens to notify the CDS government in writing that the AA EO wished to separate the six AA sims from CDS, as a separate estate.
(b) The CDS RA may by a 2/3rds majority vote, and posted notice of that vote to AA and CDS citizens, elect to re-separate the six AA sims from CDS, as a separate estate.
[11:10] Patroklus Murakami: Upon receipt of either notice, if it occurs, CDS will give up any rights in control over the AA nonprofit entity and AA EO, and have no further liability for the AA sims; and the AA EO and residents will absolve CDS of any such further liability. In such event AA and CDS will work in reasonable good faith to achieve a smooth transition.
If neither notice is received by the end of the seventh calendar day, this option to separate is permanently terminated.
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: The so-called 'wasp' clause
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: or Pat clause
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I personally don't think that 8 is really a "problem"
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie
[11:11] Arria Perreault: We know the problem of this point: AA community can decide on both site
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: Yes?
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: well, let's personalise issues
[11:11] Patroklus Murakami: why not?
[11:11] Tor Karlsvalt: I think we can do this merger. And I see AA people runing for RA. So they are becoming part of CDS institutions.
[11:11] Jamie Palisades: Arria, i thikn it is an option for either side, not just AA
[11:12] Arria Perreault: they can decide as AA community but they have a representation in the RA. And the RA need a 2/3 vote
[11:12] Jamie Palisades: and I thikn this meeting is about whetehr CDS should pul the trigger and kill it
[11:12] Arria Perreault: it's just inequal
[11:12] Tor Karlsvalt: Obviously a year with only two elections may not be a lot of time for both to merge totally, legally and culturally.
[11:12] Patroklus Murakami: no, not kill jamie. just go for something different. more equal
[11:12] Mikelo Serevi: true arria, it is
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AA has a slight advantage, as they can elect 2/3 of the CDS RA seats, and make sure that their option (either pro or against the merger) is enforced
[11:12] Jamie Palisades: genuiely intriguing, pat - like what? convert to franchulate?
[11:12] Patroklus Murakami: this is the 'unequal treaty' part
[11:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But, alas, I personally don't see a problem.
[11:13] Solomon Mosely: well, cant the dual cds/aa citizens do the same thing in aa discussions, arria?
[11:13] Ranma Tardis: I have issues with the CDS but perhaps I am just too "American", something I heard enough to get sick
[11:13] Tor Karlsvalt: It is a contrct that should not be broken easily.
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: no jamie. just live next to each other and be friendly
[11:13] Jamie Palisades: i have some RL travel issues that will pull me away - but i'd love to see more expansion of Pat's idea that there are some other options
[11:13] Tor Karlsvalt: I don't see the 2/3rds rule as unreasonable
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: but run our affairs separately
[11:13] Ranma Tardis: yes Pat that is agreable
[11:13] Patroklus Murakami: maybe help each other out with evetns and even funding
[11:13] Mikelo Serevi: This is what we always did before
[11:13] Solomon Mosely: is this because the new pat, does breaking the merger go with your RA size ammendment?
[11:13] Arria Perreault: the RA is an Assembly of all
[11:13] Keila Forager: or since individuals are running for office, they might not get any representatives
[11:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Pat, I think that is my fallback position
[11:14] Arria Perreault: it doesnt represent the CDS original sims community
[11:14] Patroklus Murakami: a 'confederation' of equals rather than a loveless marriage
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: pat, does breaking the merger go with your RA size ammendment?
[11:14] Tor Karlsvalt: I would like to see the meger tried.
[11:14] Mikelo Serevi: lol pat
[11:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Tor, I think that the whole merger agreement was based on the goodwill assumption that it WOULD go through, and that's why it is, in essence, biased towards making it more easy to go ahead than to break it. As said, I have no personal problems with that.
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: the ra gets too big for a small group to influence?
[11:14] Mikelo Serevi: tor, I think we have been trying it
[11:14] Arria Perreault: Tor, we tried for almost one year
[11:14] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, there's one realproblem with that - the agreement doesn't hold CDS to respect any of its terms *after* the merger
[11:14] Ranma Tardis: actually, if the cds takes full control of AA a lot of us would simply leave
[11:14] Solomon Mosely: i dont think so mike
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Tor, the trial period is "now" After July, there is no possibility to "go back"
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn's right
[11:15] Solomon Mosely: sure, its a democracy, anything can get voted on in the future, if pepoel want
[11:15] Arria Perreault: since last summer, Tor
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, good point, Kas.
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: after July, thhhhhCDS can do anything
[11:15] Tor Karlsvalt: Understood.
[11:15] Jamie Palisades: Arria, did we try? Did we fail? Did Stui and all those people on RA fail to make it a joint government this last year? WHY are you calling it a fail?
[11:15] Ranma Tardis: not true agrements are not gospil
[11:15] Kaseido Quandry: (sorry, keyboard driver problems)
[11:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After July, there is no more separation of CDS or AA... except for ownership of the AA sims
[11:15] Patroklus Murakami: i've supported teh merger throughout, even argued for it at the last town hall. but it's become clear to me it isn't working
[11:16] Tor Karlsvalt: I feel tho we much of this is an effort toward giving up on the merger.
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: not true,
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: they can de merge
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: it's not just merger or bust. we can have a different relationship
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: as a democracy, which wont be destroyed by aa people
[11:16] Solomon Mosely: we can vote to make any changes
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: why can't we explore the options?
[11:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ranma's point is a valid one, though: the "common government" will have access to all sims, all themes, and can change all clauses of the current agreement except one. Is that something that bothers AA citizens?
[11:16] Jamie Palisades: Kas, I see mo problem there -- it IS in fact time for AA t risk being utterly controlled by CDS or not -- depending I guess on how fair & receptive they think CDS is, smile
[11:16] Arria Perreault: We got blocking for the project Sacromonte, which was not normal, because the idea was to act as one community
[11:16] Patroklus Murakami: why does it ahve to be black and white?
[11:16] Ranma Tardis: I have no desire to destroy the CDS "democracy"
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: *no problem
[11:17] Arria Perreault: then we got so many critics, while we have made many efforts
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: I think when the merger is finally dead we can look at optons.
[11:17] Arria Perreault: look all what was done in communication
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: but we should work to make the agreement work.
[11:17] Jamie Palisades: Sorry? More criqtiuse than is usual in CDS government?
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Won't that be too late, Tor? "If neither notice is received by the end of the seventh calendar day, this option to separate is permanently terminated."
[11:17] Arria Perreault: take the example of communication
[11:17] Tor Karlsvalt: we have some time
[11:17] Keila Forager: You got blocked because Rose was already in negotiations to rent it out, I remember reading that
[11:18] Solomon Mosely: but aa will be continue being a part of cds and the government, nothing has to happen to them without their support
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: try looking at ways to change their minds, I am only speaking out for the others that will not
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami wonders if 'dunabar's number' is 80 in virtual worlds and not 150....
[11:18] Tor Karlsvalt: it seems this boils down to trust
[11:18] Arria Perreault: I think we have more progresses than in several past terms
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: yes Tor you are so correct
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[11:18] Tor Karlsvalt: CDS does not trust AA to change the dem. system and AA worries that CDS will destroy its mission
[11:18] Arria Perreault: now we have improved the portal, open a Twitter, a Facce
[11:18] Pip Torok makes a mental note to research Dunbar's number
[11:18] Arria Perreault: a Facebook page
[11:18] Ranma Tardis: yes
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (it's quite interesting, Pip )
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: Arria, before AA, "the good old Alpine" CDS tried to oust about 1 elected official per year. How is this more contentious?
[11:19] Tor Karlsvalt: we need to see that niether side has to feer the other.
[11:19] Arria Perreault: and we got critics for a silly notice that was not sent on time ...
[11:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So do more AA residents share Ranma's opinion?
[11:19] Solomon Mosely: who is on the commission to create cash flow solutions for cds and aa?
[11:19] Solomon Mosely: who is on the pio team to coordinate events?
[11:19] Keila Forager: and the portal is still as difficult to navigate as before
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: Solomon = starts with chancellor - HAS TO!
[11:19] Ranma Tardis: Neaultenberg was about a syatem of checks and balances, the RA destroyed them
[11:19] Patroklus Murakami: if the merger is made permanent, we should all try to make it work
[11:19] Jamie Palisades: let's ask Sonja
[11:19] Arria Perreault: we did this only with good will and volunteering
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: but i don't think it will be pretty, or much fun
[11:20] Sonja Strom: Solomon, are you volunteering to help with them?
[11:20] Sonja Strom: Jamie, are you?
[11:20] Jamie Palisades sort of makes a ocnfused look
[11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Generally wwhere there is criticism there is room to improve and such institutions will improve to avoid repetition - is it different here ?
[11:20] Jamie Palisades: SO\onja I put in dozens of hours a week for 18 months
[11:20] Sonja Strom: If anybody here will help, please IM me and we can work on it.
[11:20] Pip Torok: Ranma, if the checks and balances allowed one-sided trashing, then I truly wonder about that
[11:20] Jamie Palisades: what do you wish, at the moment?
[11:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear, Stui!
[11:20] Arria Perreault: Jamie, I know that every CDS goverment got critics, but poeple are considering people like me as rascal, do you think it's still rationnal?
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: and what if we disagree stui, on what improvement means?
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ha Pat
[11:21] Arria Perreault: when*
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patty
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where there is cause for criticism by the people
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: then
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: that is where we must act
[11:21] Jamie Palisades: :/ i don;t think you are a rascal, i thikn you are an artist who has kindly agreed to preside over this squabbling bunch
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to avoid this state of play
[11:21] Patroklus Murakami: i prefer 'patsy' if we're using drag names
[11:21] Jamie Palisades: and you have my strong sympathy
[11:21] Tor Karlsvalt:
[11:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or compassion
[11:22] Arria Perreault: do you think I chair the RA as an artist?
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where AP and others can get upset over consistent reminders of the short comings of the system
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: Ha ha not a bad idea - i tried doing it as a mediator and liontamer
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: ok Patty
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, guys, guys... sorry but we should continue to focus on the issue... we have more Town hall meetings to discuss other issues
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: maybe artist will work better
[11:22] Mikelo Serevi: I'm grateful for Arria's efforts myself
[11:22] Jamie Palisades: Hear, hear Mikelo
[11:22] Pip Torok: me too Mikelo
[11:23] Arria Perreault: I have trie to find bridges to the AA community
[11:23] Arria Perreault: realy
[11:23] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, didn't notice we has strayed!
[11:23] Tor Karlsvalt: Good AP. I think we all need to do that for each of us.
[11:23] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the truth is that there is an element of conservatism in the system just for the sake of it
[11:23] Jamie Palisades: :/ but you have RA members from there ... that's like saying "I tried to find bridges to All\pine Meadows people"
[11:23] Patroklus Murakami: if we are thinking about s.8, this is teh one which is now under discussion
[11:23] Keila Forager: and the unwillingness for change
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we did, Pat We're shifting the focus about the merger agreement to validating what people have been doing (or not)
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: chaos is not good for stability, stui
[11:24] Arria Perreault: I wished AA poeple had considered my real efforts instead to stay their ideological view of CDS
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: and will be determined partly by the outcome of the next elections
[11:24] Jamie Palisades: Not sure we need bridges -- prettt such the govt and EOs need to talk more, and that the RA needs to act on form of government
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: but then there is a debate about the improvement of the system Mikelo
[11:24] Arria Perreault: as LRA, I have open the RA agenda to any citizen
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well improvements are qualified by the citizens
[11:24] Pip Torok: well THIS AA person does, Arria
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: where criticism is voiced
[11:25] Solomon Mosely: the relevance of this shift in focus gwen,
[11:25] Jamie Palisades: i case there is a doubt, let me say again, like i did on the forums last wek -- i think Arria has acted fairly, carefully and (amazingly) politely, from what I know of the last 4 months
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the government must work to iron the crease
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Stui. Then the question is: in what way is the "improvement of the system" a condition for the merger to go ahead successfully?
[11:25] Solomon Mosely: is to show the efforts to make this owrk have been minimal
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: i think there has been an aggressive attempt to attack the CDS institutions and use AA as a battering ram for change
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, of course, what is to be done in terms of mmmh "improvements"?
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean concrete examples.
[11:25] Jamie Palisades: it;s not the RA's job to start work on getting the nonprofit corp thing solved -- or the rent boxex
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Patty then if that is your view
[11:25] Tor Karlsvalt: I don't think so Pat.
[11:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have a few, ironically from Michel Manen: direct Chancellor election
[11:25] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you are as much part of the problem as the solution
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: Hmm, that may be pat
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: darling, so are you
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as you percieve the battering ram
[11:26] Tor Karlsvalt: Seems CDS is overly worried about an Ulrika.
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie, you're actually quite right
[11:26] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it is there
[11:26] Jamie Palisades: given me much to think on - we started a good experiment - i wonder if we can keep it? travel pulls me away, regards to all
[11:26] Mikelo Serevi: bye jamie
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: bye jamie
[11:26] Ranma Tardis: Tor stop slandering my friend Ulrika!
[11:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: see you, Jamie, thanks for coming!
[11:26] Sonja Strom: bye Jamie
[11:26] Tor Karlsvalt: so it is too sensitive about loosing democracy to a tyrant.
[11:26] Arria Perreault: bye Jamie
[11:27] Tor Karlsvalt: haha
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: i think it would be nice sometimes if ppl who want to change the CDS would recognise that, in so many ways, it actually works?
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I agree, Tor, and I personally admit that I worry about that, but can understand that others don't.
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: Well, tor, perhaps it's more vigilance than fear
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: heh Pat
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But ok, let's pick up Stui's thread...
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What "improvements" have to be made?
[11:27] Tor Karlsvalt: I think CDS is amazing.
[11:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean on the "system".
[11:27] Arria Perreault: the best we can do now would be a summary of all answers we got on the agreement
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: rather than aggressively tearing down everything that ppl spent years working to build up