Census Procedure

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Tanoujin Milestone
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Census Procedure

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Dear Sudane,

after the SC meeting of June 20th we informally discussed the census. I remember when you explained the census procedure to the EMs - in 2013 or so - it was a comparison of names from the land scanner list and the citizens in good standing on the hippo page.

Back then you mentioned a loophole: the possibility of a person owning a parcel with hippo unpaid and having a paid hippo box without parcel ownership on the same sim. Such a person would be rendered eligible to vote and run by that method.

My question to you: if the constitution would be changed so that it demands ownership of a parcel and paid hippo box on the very same parcel, would you have to walk the sims and compare ownership and hippo stats parcel by parcel?

Having done so in the past I know this would be very much asked to do a census in a timely fashion. What consequences would such a change have to your census procedure? Are there more elegant possibilities?

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Sudane Erato »

Whew... this is a very good question. And very important to understand.

First, let me try to describe the census process very clearly. If I am VERY clear, you will see the problem immediately. But I know this is sometimes hard to grasp, because I am not clear.

With the tools we have now... and let me emphasize this... with the TOOLS WE HAVE NOW, the best we can do for a census is to run two scans.

One scan asks the tools to name who are the owners of parcels in the CDS. This tool was created by Timo Gufler, and I am grateful that we have it. But ALL IT DOES is list the names of people who own parcels in the CDS. It does NOT say what they own.

The second scan uses the Hippo system. It asks for the names of all persons who are current with their tier. (It also reveals who is not current, and who owns what).

But with these two tools, I have no way to match PARCELS with TIER BOXES. So, to answer a specific part of your question, it is entirely possible for a person to own one parcel but to have paid nothing to its tier box, but at the same time to have paid into a different tier box, perhaps on a parcel which they don't own. That sounds weird, but it's entirely possible, and it HAS happened. And although Cally has tried to explain to me that that situation does NOT enable citizenship for a resident... there is nothing I can do about it. The official census would declare that person eligible to vote.

Mind you, of course, if there was a suspicion, individuals could research the situation, determine the facts, and petition to remove that person from the voting rolls. But my census would not have revealed that violation.

This is because of the limitation of the tools I have. I have tried a scanner tool that RG suggested. While it claims to provide a scan of names of owners and the names of the parcels they own, I found is EXTREMELY erratic, and unable to yield consistent results. I'd be happy to demonstrate.

So... to answer the other part of your question. If the constitution was arranged to indicate that the voter MUST be current on each parcel that they OWN, or any parcel that they own... I do not have the tools to determine that. Volunteers would need to manually inspect every parcel. This would probably be politically unacceptable.

I will end here by noting that I have asked Timo to modify the tools we have to include the capability to scan for both owner and parcel, AND to enable a direct correlation with the Hippo data. We are still discussing this. RL has a way of getting in the way of projects such as this, and, frankly, Timo is skeptical about the long term future of SL1. So such a tool may require that we wait until SL2 crashes and burns (which it will) before we can generate the momentum to develop new tools for our census process.

I hope that answers the question. But I am totally understanding if it does not. Please... you are welcome to ask for more clarification.

Sudane.........................

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Widget Whiteberry »

I found this text in SC Meeting Sun Nov 16, Transcript <http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6123>

Lilith Ivory: while we always use to make it clear in our forum posts and reminders we send out to citizens they need to own land and be in good standing at the SAME hippo box I am not sure at the moment if the original law at this time was worded as clear
Lilith Ivory: I think we need to look at this law to see if owning one parcel and paying the tier for another one made her a citizen able to vote
Lilith Ivory: do we have a link to this handy?
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith - I think the point here is that Cleopatra did not OWN the parcel she held the tier box on.
Callipygian Christensen: we can find the link to the law certainly, but I believe it is always clear that ownership and tier box go toether
Lilith Ivory: yes I am aware of the fact and would say as long as she did not own both parcel and the box to this parcel she should have been removed from the list
Callipygian Christensen: Would you like to locate it whole the others speak?
Lilith Ivory: (just wondering if she found another loobhole here)
Soro Dagostino: ((Cleo was a master at that.))
Lilith Ivory: unfortunately yes

and

CDSL 21-03  Government Official Citizenship Act
Monday, January 26, 2015
Enacted 26 October 2014

All elected members of govt, and members of the SC, and appointed members of the Executive and Civil Service shall maintain their citizenship by owning a parcel of land and keeping tier on that parcel current. In extenuating circumstances, a provisional citizenship of less than seven days is permissible.

Provisional citizenship of more than seven days will result in removal from office.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

And we could solve this problem by having one system instead of two :-)

Abolish land 'ownership' (which is really just 'the right to pay tier on a parcel' and currently worth L$1 per parcel) and just rely on Hippo for tier payments. Citizenship, and the right to vote, then becomes much simpler. It's 'being current on at least one parcel in CDS'.

Having two systems wastes *huge* amounts of time that could be spent on more productive activities and it means that most land sales need some manual intervention because getting it right is very complicated and it's really easy to make mistakes when selling or buying land in CDS.

You know I'm going to keep banging on about this until you change things, right? :-)

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Thank you, Sudane, for clarification. Meanwhile i was told Widget maintains a land owner list - i imagine this is a lot of work - thanks for that too.

Pat seems to have means to cut the gordian knot here - are there any counter arguments?

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Sudane Erato »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

And we could solve this problem by having one system instead of two :-)

Abolish land 'ownership' (which is really just 'the right to pay tier on a parcel' and currently worth L$1 per parcel) and just rely on Hippo for tier payments. Citizenship, and the right to vote, then becomes much simpler. It's 'being current on at least one parcel in CDS'.

Having two systems wastes *huge* amounts of time that could be spent on more productive activities and it means that most land sales need some manual intervention because getting it right is very complicated and it's really easy to make mistakes when selling or buying land in CDS.

You know I'm going to keep banging on about this until you change things, right? :-)

Let's just say this. With the tools we have in hand... NOW... this proposal makes a huge amount of sense. And let's also remember... before we had the current citizenship definition, we had an even more complex one; and the current definition was arrived at to reflect what we were ABLE to do.

But I think we really must acknowledge the reasons for opposition to this. All across SL there is a migration by estate owners away from allowing people to "own" their parcels and towards purely the payment of tier boxes to qualify for the occupancy of a parcel. Even the concept of what we call "owning" a parcel is suspect... the Estate Owner OWNS the parcel... no... sorry... LL OWNS the parcel... and each "layer of ownership" steps down the ladder of control over the land, so that "owning" a parcel is really only about the ability to make a few settings in the About Land box. And having your name listed in that box as "Owner"... which many people subvert by deeding their parcels to a group. But "ownership" as we refer to it here means not very much... it is primarily a *psychological* benefit.

And that is why Pat's proposal is opposed. We fashion ourselves a democracy. On a regular basis government opponents rail against the purported tyranny of the manipulative Estate Owner who gulls citizens into feeling that they control their own community while in reality having all the power. Somehow "owning" their land creates the feeling among citizens that they have more of a stake... that they are more "invested" here (especially anomalous now that land is sold for L$1 per parcel). Many times this topic has come up, and it is always rejected on the strength of the conviction that our democracy is based on the individual ownership of land in the CDS estate.

*shrug*... so be it. But Pat is right... it would be much simpler to base citizenship purely on tier box payments. Hippo data can be extracted and organized easily. It could be done daily, if desired. Tier box ownership lists could probably be posted on the site, updated daily. Periodically checks could be made to ensure that ownership, if we even continued ownership, corresponded to one's tier boxes, but if citizenship was de-coupled from ownership this would be less critical. Certainly something to think about.

Sudane...................

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Coop »

So here is where I can be the contrarian. Name one estate that does land like that that allows open building, because I want to see it for myself. The one estate that does 'just meters' that I know of does not allow the residents to build their own houses or use a build of their choosing that fits the theme. Is that what we've come to?

The biggest problem with going to something like Pat suggested is that then there is not a good way to regulate the actual number of prims a single person uses. There are complaints about the burden we put on EMs now, and rez rights for land groups...

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Callipygian »

I am not personally attached to any particular method to establish citizenship, other than whatever method chosen should be easy to understand for new citizens and easy to administer for those who have the task of establishing the Citizen List. While an easier system is long overdue, let's make sure it *is* a system that is easier and that there are no unintended consequences in applying it.

A few thoughts:

It's been mentioned that 'land ownership' is only a perception, not the reality. True - but that perception in many cases is the foundation of the commitment felt to CDS and it's existence. Will that level of 'belief in what CDS stands for' be maintained or fostered in a tier-only system. 'Ownership' attachment is, I believe, what often inspires people to serve in gov't and/or take an active role in telling gov't what they want. If there is no sense of ownership, will it be easier for many to just pull up stakes and go pay a tier box elsewhere when change is proposed or passed? How will the importance of, and agreement to, covenant compliance be imparted if it is not a box you must agree to when purchasing land?

Moving to a 'tier box only' citizenship with no land ownership would, I feel, require that CDS buy back all of the land currently owned by citizens at the time of the switch, or commit to buying that land at whatever point each owner decides to move to another parcel or to leave. Using the standard CDS rate of (I think) 1.50 per sq metre single prim and 3.0 double prim, this is a fairly substantial dip into the reserves. I have no opinion on whether that is a good or bad thing, just believe it would be necessary.

'Tier only' citizenship may produce some challenges in interpretation, if how it establishes citizenship is not clearly defined and explained to people. If one allowed tier to lapse, would the '28 day to establish full citizenship' clock start over? Currently it does not, a citizen is 'provisional' with all rights except the right to vote, until they pay up, at which point their full citizenship is restored. Would 'oops I clicked Refund by mistake' require the reestablishment of citizenship? Would having an additional name on the tier box for payment purposes confer citizenship on both?

It would also be possible to still allow land ownership but not use it to establish citizenship; that addresses Coop's concern re: freedom to build. Current tier, for the required timeframe, would then be the way that citizenship is established and maintained. This would (as would any tierbox based system) require a daily record kept and checked by *someone* - and saved somewhere for use if there are petitions about inclusion on the Citizen List for voting - if it is to be an accurate and better system than we have now.

It is no secret that there are already a number of current citizens with little interest in the political activity of CDS. Is that number likely to increase under a new system, and if so, what is the tipping point that removes CDS from being an active democracy to an estate where decisions are made by a committee of a few with the desire or dedication to do so - much like a Homeowner's Association? How would we pique the interest, or even establish if there IS interest in active citizenship, among newcomers under a new system?

Economics: vacant parcel tier is somewhat offset by the purchase of land. If there is no sale of land, what effect will that have on tier rates? What effect will it have on growth (or on the reserve), if there is no way to recoup the cost of purchasing a new region?

Reading some of this, many of you are saying 'but the current system doesn't do that either!' and you are right. But if we are going to make profound changes then let's make sure the resulting system is *better*, not just trade one set of challenges for another.

Calli

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Josie Fotherington »

I am like Calli in that I don't have a preference in how to establish citizenship. I'm not going to touch the concept of citizenship with a 10 foot pole. What I can do is speak to the "technical" administration of the land.

Let's say we try Pat's example and abolish individual land ownership in the About Land dialog box. The citizen sees a parcel they want, pays the open meter next to it and boom, it's "legally" theirs in terms of CDS law. There is now one list to look at to determine citizenship. Yay!

However...

To whom would the parcel actually be deeded? It would need to be a CDS land group that manages citizen land, let's call it the "CDS Land" group.

The citizen will not be able to use that land in ANY way until an EM manually adds them to the "CDS Land" group. If the citizen and an EM are on at the same time, great! The EM adds them and they can start rezzing, set the land as home and set their music.

If no EMs are on when the citizen is online, that citizen has to wait for someone to invite them to the group. Let's say the EM is online but the citizen is not. The EM sends the group invitation. Great, right? Wrong! Do you know how many times group invitations to offline avatars fail? I would estimate that they fail 2/3 of the time. What ends up happening is that the citizen logs in and still is not in the group. They send a message to the EM saying "hey you did not add me to the group! I still can't use my land!" And the EM says "But I sent you the group invite!" Citizen says "well, I never received it!" Wash, rinse, repeat until both the citizen and an EM are online at the same time to ensure the group invite goes through.

Could we not use a group at all and just leave it in Rudeen's name? Nope. If it's in Rudeen's name the citizen can not set the land as their home or change the music. They could put prims on the land, if rezzing were left open. But if rezzing is left open then anyone could rez whatever they want wherever they want. It is zero land security. Could we make the group an open group so the citizen can join in themselves? Yep, but once again this means there is no security for rezzing on the land. Anyone that joins the group can rez wherever they want.

Ok, so we have to use a group that is not open-join and the EM and citizen play IM tag until the citizen is in the group. Eventually the citizen is added to the group. They can rez, and set the land as home and change their music. It took a few days to get them in, but hey now they are in and all is well. Great, right?

Wrong! With the way SL land deeding is configured, the prims on all of the parcels that are deeded to a single group get dumped into a giant "bank" of prims that anyone in the group can use on group-deeded land, anywhere in the sim. This means that someone with a double-prim 512 sq. m. parcel could rez 1000 prims on it in spite of the fact that the prim allotment on that parcel is 234 prims. Anyone could "steal" prims from their neighbors. This means that there would need to be an additional tool on the land and additional administrative steps for the EMs in order to keep track of parcel prim counts.

I have worked in estates that do parcel prim counts. I can tell you that people do NOT keep track of their own prim counts. They will rez and rez and rez some more. I had to track people down, send notes, send IMs in order to get them to remove prims.

Could an EM just return prims on the parcel that equal the overage. Sure they could, but if you think people get weird and proprietary about SL land, just WAIT until you return some of their prims without their knowledge or permission! Oh the angst! Oh the drama!

Other "issues" with using a land group: anyone could set their home on anyone else's parcel. Anyone could reset the music on anyone else's parcel. They all have to belong to a group role that allows them to do these things on the parcel next to their tier meter, yet those same permissions they need to use their own land are the same permissions on EVERYONE's land.

Is there any way to get around this? Well, we could set up an individual land groups for every parcel in the entire estate.

Ahhh...no.

Group deeded land would abolish the parcel-purchase-mistakes problem...and it would bring with it the issues that I list above. Chose your poison.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Josie Fotherington »

I apologize for the many typos in my previous post. I would fix them, but the EDIT button seems to be missing.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Rosie Gray »

Josie, thank you very much for taking the time to detail all the reasons that abolishing citizen owned land would not work for our purposes. I agree with each point.

The main reason that the CDS is unique is because of our land owning policy. Yes, it is a pain in the butt to administer, but it does work. It distinguishes the CDS from all of the other privately held regions, and allows us to have citizenship that has some meaning. I can go and rent a parcel on another region at any time and perhaps have a slightly less rate for each prim, but I do not feel that I have the same stake in the community because of all of the reasons that Josie, and Calli have stated.

I think we have more issues to deal with than trying to change something that works, and that most citizens value.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Having had to administer this (with *huge* amounts of help from Lilith) I can't begin to describe what a monumental pain in the behind this is. I would really like to make everyone who wishes to comment take turns at administering it. If it wasn't just a PITA job delegated to someone else you would be up in arms about it.

But I recognise that there is an attachment to land 'ownership' and that it makes some things simpler such as rezzing homes and items. (The alternative is to have a group for each parcel which would take time to set up).

Couldn't we make the census a bit simpler though by making it "you need to be current in your tier for at least one parcel" and getting rid of the ownership requirement? People would still need to own a parcel in order to rez items on the land but it would make taking a census a lot more straightforward.

There would still be 'edge cases' such as when someone sets a parcel for sale or abandons it but does not take a tier refund from the Hippo box. Or when someone has purchased the plot but the previous owner has not cleared the Hippo box so they can make a payment. We would have to work out what counted in these cases.

But, if we have to have two systems because people like to say they 'own' land (even if that is a bit of an illusion) then let's try to make life easier for ourselves in how we decide who gets to vote.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Josie Fotherington »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Having had to administer this (with *huge* amounts of help from Lilith) I can't begin to describe what a monumental pain in the behind this is. I would really like to make everyone who wishes to comment take turns at administering it. If it wasn't just a PITA job delegated to someone else you would be up in arms about it.

I've done it. For several years. The same way it's done in CDS. In estates the same size as CDS or larger.

It can be a bit tedious, but I had a clear-cut process that I followed, with notecard templates for every possible "mistake" situation. I never found it wildly annoying, it was just a process that I had to follow sometimes if the land transaction headed down the "mistake" path. It was a part of my job as an estate manager due to the way LL has land set up in SL.

I want to reiterate: I am not married to any one way of determining citizenship. If it could be done though one channel alone, it would be wonderful and save tons of admin time. I'm just explaining the technical realities of SL land management. It's very clunky and un-user-friendly any way you look at it.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Rosie Gray »

Patroklus Murakami wrote:

Having had to administer this (with *huge* amounts of help from Lilith) I can't begin to describe what a monumental pain in the behind this is. I would really like to make everyone who wishes to comment take turns at administering it. If it wasn't just a PITA job delegated to someone else you would be up in arms about it.

I've also helped out with this, when Tor and also when Trebor were Chancellors. It is easier when there are more hands helping. Like Josie, I think that it's not all that bad if you just set up a system, since the same scenarios repeat themselves.

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Re: Census Procedure

Post by Widget Whiteberry »

Sudane and I are doing it now. We've been doing it for months. Lilith takes the lead on making sure the person who doesn't complete the CDS two-step does so, so that the Hippo reports and the Land Ownership report match up. Also, when parcels cycle back to Rudeen, Lilith fixes the parcel descriptions so they show the parcel number. I maintain the Master Parcel List. When the Dean of the SC or Chancellor requests a census report, Sudane and I compare the various reports and prepare a census list. Then it's posted to the Forums and inworld so that you all can look for errors of omission or commission.

Sudane and I are testing another way of lining up the data. We'll let you know if we learn anything useful. Hopefully it'll be less time consuming, but my part is about 30 min a week and then — I'm guessing — an hour to produce a report.

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