[8:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hello
[8:05] Moon Adamant: lol, hi again
[8:05] Jon Seattle: LOL!
[8:05] Moon Adamant: i had completly forgot it was in the biergarten
[8:05] Patroklus Murakami: hi there
[8:05] Jon Seattle: Something is very laggy here.
[8:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, well  too big textures, I'm afraid!
[8:06] Moon Adamant: yup
[8:06] Moon Adamant: another thing yet to solve
[8:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, well met again, Patroklus 
[8:06] Moon Adamant: guys, just let me go get a bit of pizza
[8:06] Jon Seattle: Perhaps we should use the fountain?
[8:06] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:06] Patroklus Murakami: hi gwyn, nice to see u again
[8:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same here, oatroklus
[8:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Patroklus
[8:07] Patroklus Murakami smiles
[8:07] Jon Seattle: LOL
[8:08] Jon Seattle: That is a little better.
[8:08] Patroklus Murakami: how long shall we give it for latecomers?
[8:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[8:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Another 5 mins? 
[8:08] Patroklus Murakami: k
[8:08] Jon Seattle: That sounds good to me!
[8:09] Moon Adamant: ok, expect slow, sticky typing from now on, lol
[8:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[8:09] Patroklus Murakami: what is that bubbling up in the corner?
[8:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lunch & party meeeting don't go well with each other...
[8:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[8:10] Jon Seattle laughs
[8:10] Moon Adamant: could be worse
[8:10] Jon Seattle: I was wandering what that was.
[8:10] Moon Adamant: could be spag bol
[8:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn is trying to get rid of it
[8:10] Patroklus Murakami: lol
[8:10] Jon Seattle: We could wait another few minutes and go to the fountain? Or perhaps the lag will decrease here.
[8:11] Moon Adamant: hmmm
[8:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The fountain even has more lag hehe
[8:11] Moon Adamant: let me check stats
[8:11] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:11] Moon Adamant: i don't think it will get better
[8:11] Jon Seattle nods
[8:12] Jon Seattle: It seems appropriate for social democrats to meet in a pub.
[8:12] Moon Adamant: lol
[8:12] Patroklus Murakami: true, v true!
[8:12] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:12] Jon Seattle gave you Notecard Dispenser.
[8:13] Jon Seattle: Sorry
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm I can't get a hold on the bubbling object
[8:13] Jon Seattle: I seem
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it seems to be *inside* a prim inside another prim
[8:13] Jon Seattle: I seem to have had troble placing that on the table
[8:13] Moon Adamant: i think it is rally under the floor
[8:13] Jon Seattle lol
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Moon
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's under the ground.
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean
[8:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Under the floor
[8:13] Jon Seattle: That was a notecard dispenser. Moon provided the script.
[8:14] Patroklus Murakami: is it a 'present' from someone now departed?
[8:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm the object shows as being Kendra's
[8:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But it might be something *inside* Kendra's object
[8:15] Jon Seattle: Which object? I made a sphere a few minutes ago.
[8:15] Patroklus Murakami: odd. i can live with it if u guys can
[8:15] Jon Seattle: Is that it?
[8:15] Moon Adamant: me too
[8:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the one with the bubbles
[8:15] Moon Adamant: no, notecard giver script didn't have praticle sys
[8:15] Moon Adamant: oh, i see your sphere now jon
[8:15] Patroklus Murakami: i see your sphere
[8:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: me too!
[8:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Is a notecard inside?
[8:16] Jon Seattle: Moon has an agenda that looks good to me!
[8:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I didn't get any...
[8:16] Patroklus Murakami: i didn't get one either
[8:16] Jon Seattle: Moon, should I put your agenda in it?
[8:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm
[8:16] Moon Adamant: ah
[8:16] Moon Adamant: sorry
[8:17] Moon Adamant: hmmm, doesn't seem to accept it
[8:17] Moon Adamant: Jon, please set the coy i gave you
[8:18] Moon Adamant: copy*
[8:18] Moon Adamant: hmmm, now i don't see it
[8:18] Jon Seattle: Moon, okay ! But perhaps you should make one this time.
[8:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh lol
[8:18] Jon Seattle: I deleted that one.
[8:18] Moon Adamant: anyway... i can give you both it
[8:18] Jon Seattle laughs
[8:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, we're just the 4 of us, I guess
[8:18] Jon Seattle: That sounds betetr.
[8:18] Jon Seattle: better.
[8:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[8:18] Patroklus Murakami: yup
[8:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, poetry we have
[8:19] An object named Notecard giver owned by Moon Adamant gave you CDSP Founding Meeting Agenda Proposal - Moon Adamant.
[8:19] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:19] Moon Adamant: must be working
[8:20] Jon Seattle laughs
[8:20] Patroklus Murakami: got it
[8:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I got your agenda, Moon  thank you
[8:20] Jon Seattle: Great!
[8:20] You have offered friendship to Jon Seattle.
[8:20] Patroklus Murakami: what does redaction mean?
[8:20] You have offered friendship to Patroklus Murakami.
[8:20] Patroklus Murakami: red action?
[8:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let me make friends with you... hehe
[8:21] Patroklus Murakami: ty:)
[8:21] Moon Adamant: er
[8:21] Moon Adamant: writing down of
[8:21] Patroklus Murakami: ok
[8:21] Moon Adamant: and me as well
[8:21] Jon Seattle nods
[8:21] Jon Seattle: I have some remarks for item #2
[8:21] Moon Adamant: sorry... not an english-born speaker
[8:21] Jon Seattle: At least a place to start.
[8:21] Moon Adamant: what would be teh proper word?
[8:22] Jon Seattle: Record?
[8:22] Jon Seattle: Review?
[8:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Writing down"?
[8:22] Patroklus Murakami: Recording would work ok
[8:22] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:23] Jon Seattle: We all search for words at times.. : )
[8:23] Moon Adamant: kk, thanks
[8:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: totally so 
[8:23] Jon Seattle: Patrorklus would like to discuss the status of the SDF I think, this may be important going forward.
[8:23] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:23] Patroklus Murakami: can i suggest a first item to discuss? the vacant RA seats and the continuing or not SDF?
[8:23] Moon Adamant: yes
[8:23] Patroklus Murakami: ty jon, moon
[8:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, #1 seems to be easy enough  can we agree upon a simple majority of people attending as to voting validity?
[8:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[8:23] Jon Seattle: Yes, that is even more accurate
[8:23] Moon Adamant: let's make it a previous point
[8:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's hear that (the SC is going to talk about it tomorrow as well, 3 PM Sl time)
[8:24] Patroklus Murakami: majoriyt voting is find with me
[8:24] Moon Adamant: ok, for majority
[8:24] Patroklus Murakami: shall i set out my stall on the sdf?
[8:24] Jon Seattle: Fine with me also. Though I think we should try once for consesus, and use majority if needed. Since only four people.
[8:24] Moon Adamant: i'll be writing the minute as well
[8:25] Jon Seattle: Thanks!
[8:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok...
[8:25] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and do go on, Patroklus!
[8:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm?
[8:25] Jon Seattle: ?
[8:26] Patroklus Murakami: i think we could legitimately claim that we are the continuingg sdf going forward
[8:26] Moon Adamant: please do go on Patroklus
[8:26] Patroklus Murakami: sorry chat lag
[8:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aah sorry´
[8:26] Jon Seattle: No problem.
[8:26] Patroklus Murakami: eugene and i are still members of the sdf original faction, i spoke to him yesterday
[8:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, great!
[8:27] Patroklus Murakami: our other city members of sdf have left the city
[8:27] Jon Seattle: Are there other members of the SDF who would like to get involved in this?
[8:27] Jon Seattle: (sorry, started writeing before last appeared.)
[8:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Cid jacobs
[8:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: he's still a member
[8:27] Patroklus Murakami: ifyou guys were to join sdf we could decide on a faction ranking for the vacant RA seats
[8:27] Patroklus Murakami: but do we want to be associated with teh old sdf - over to you!
[8:28] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, cid also
[8:28] Moon Adamant: i have a few things i'd like to state after Jon
[8:28] Cigarette: Commands are: '/52043 light', '/52043 inhale', '/52043 extinguish'
[8:29] Jon Seattle: I get the feeling that the old SDF is problamatic. Could we do something like transform the SDF for the next election? I am not sure of the details or what the scientific C would think in this case.
[8:29] Jon Seattle listens
[8:29] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:29] Patroklus Murakami: i think the next elections should be fought by a new social democratic entity unconnnected with the old sdf
[8:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, should I answer first?
[8:29] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[8:29] Moon Adamant: yes, please
[8:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just briefly...
[8:30] Moon Adamant: and i'll talk in the end
[8:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SDF is a valid party for the current RA
[8:30] Moon Adamant takes a bit of pizza out of kboard
[8:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since it was a group formed specifically for running for elections
[8:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so it is a valid party
[8:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Even if 99% of their members are *not* citizens (that's a loophole!)
[8:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So... hmm... I don't see a way that we can "wrestle" the SDF out of this mess. Either it presents itself as a valid party
[8:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (since it has indeed 3 elegible members)
[8:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or a new one is formed
[8:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's it
[8:31] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:31] Moon Adamant: my views now
[8:32] Moon Adamant: i think the maintaning of SDF
[8:32] Moon Adamant: as it is
[8:32] Moon Adamant: with same name and logo
[8:32] Moon Adamant: can be problematic in the future
[8:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[8:32] Jon Seattle agrees with that
[8:32] Patroklus Murakami nods
[8:33] Moon Adamant: recent events have shown how passionate individuals can feel about the propriety of concepts
[8:33] Moon Adamant: there are no guarantees that it can't happen again - and specifically about the SDF
[8:33] Moon Adamant: also
[8:33] Moon Adamant: the situation has changed
[8:33] Moon Adamant: or will change in teh future
[8:34] Moon Adamant: there is now a new entity that also uses teh NA name
[8:34] Moon Adamant: and which will possibly hold also the SDF name for it
[8:34] Moon Adamant: also in NA
[8:34] Moon Adamant: teh situation will change soon
[8:34] Moon Adamant: as we expand to another sim, and become a confed
[8:35] Moon Adamant: so for all this
[8:35] Moon Adamant: and for waht you all said before
[8:35] Moon Adamant: i think:
[8:35] Moon Adamant: that a new unconnected social-democratic faction is needed
[8:36] Moon Adamant: that can have, from teh beginning
[8:36] Moon Adamant: democratic procedures
[8:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hear, hear
[8:36] Jon Seattle: Yes!
[8:36] Patroklus Murakami: can i jump in?
[8:36] Jon Seattle listens
[8:36] Moon Adamant: and a program to the changed situation
[8:36] Moon Adamant: i am finished, please do
[8:36] Patroklus Murakami: i agree with all u have said
[8:37] Patroklus Murakami: we need a new faction to fight the next election
[8:37] Patroklus Murakami: but what should we do abouut the vacant rA seats this month? should we forego them?
[8:37] Moon Adamant: kk
[8:37] Jon Seattle: I have a comment after P.
[8:37] Patroklus Murakami: btw I don't want to be on the RA and will only do so under duress!
[8:37] Moon Adamant: i am not sure what will happen if we forego them
[8:38] Patroklus Murakami: but i think it's important to fill the seats
[8:38] Moon Adamant: does RA then appoint citizens to fill?
[8:38] Patroklus Murakami: for the health of NB democracty
[8:38] Moon Adamant: you're right Patroklus - this is a matter that must be thought over
[8:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[8:39] Jon Seattle: I also think there is some responsibility to the people who voted for the SDF. Who will represent them?
[8:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed.
[8:39] Moon Adamant: yup
[8:39] Patroklus Murakami: that's a good point, jon
[8:39] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:39] Moon Adamant: indeed
[8:39] Moon Adamant: maye Gwyn can answer what i asked
[8:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Personally, I'm going to propose tomorrow a mechanism for dealing with it (ie. new elections )
[8:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But I'm just one vote out of 3 in the SC
[8:39] Moon Adamant: oh
[8:39] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[8:40] Moon Adamant: is there sufficient grounds for it?
[8:40] Jon Seattle: Can you tell us more about your proposal?
[8:40] Moon Adamant: it would indeed solve teh problem
[8:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, basically, it's not very complex.
[8:40] Patroklus Murakami: hmm, why have new elections so close to a scheduled one?
[8:40] Patroklus Murakami: go ahead gwyn
[8:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) If someone leaves, the next one comes from the list of elected members, in turn (like currently)
[8:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) If there are not enough "elected" members, the faction's leader can appoint another (un)elected member from the same party (this is something udner discussion, since the Const. *does* allow it)
[8:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) If there are not enough members for teh party to be a "valid" one
[8:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: new elections are automatically called
[8:41] Jon Seattle nods
[8:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the party that has "lost" all its members gets two sanctions:
[8:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) it cannot present itself on the subsequent elections (ie. to prevent abuse)
[8:42] Moon Adamant: ah, i see
[8:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) none of the party members who WERE elected on the previous term cannot be elected on the subsequent one
[8:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Same principle,ie
[8:42] Patroklus Murakami is puzzled
[8:42] Moon Adamant: ah Pat
[8:43] Patroklus Murakami: i'd need to think about that one!
[8:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: avoiding that someone leaves a party, forces the RA to new elections, and gets elected with more votes under a different party
[8:43] Moon Adamant: parties if not sanctioned could game the RA
[8:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[8:43] Moon Adamant: yes, lol, you said it in a prettier way Gwyn
[8:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You would just leave the RA and create a new party, thus forcing teh RA to new elections.
[8:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nd get elected again, etc
[8:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: with all the disruption due to a new government, etc etc etc
[8:44] Patroklus Murakami: i think it needs further thought but i can see what you're getting at
[8:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[8:44] Jon Seattle nods
[8:44] Patroklus Murakami: what have we decided to do?
[8:44] Patroklus Murakami:
[8:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is worse to me: having a situation where there are people to be replaced in the RA and no way to replace them 
[8:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and hehe
[8:45] Moon Adamant: hmmm
[8:45] Moon Adamant: from what you said gwyn
[8:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd say, the SC is *very divided* on this issue  it can go either way!
[8:46] Moon Adamant: maybe there is no way to eaved teh need of extraordinary elections
[8:46] Jon Seattle: I think we need to form the new party. The SDF might decide to continue to hold the seats and combine with us for the election? Or, just focus on the election.
[8:46] Moon Adamant: avoid*
[8:46] Patroklus Murakami: agreed jon
[8:46] Moon Adamant: and obviously agree Jon
[8:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just focus on the election, since the *current* RA can vote for new elections if they wish
[8:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the SC would very likely recommend them to do that anyway, procedures or no procedures
[8:47] Moon Adamant: yup
[8:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: After all, their major problem is getting *5* people to meet... if there are only *3*... it's even harder!
[8:47] Moon Adamant: so we do have a common stand here?
[8:47] Patroklus Murakami: can i ask gwyn a qn?
[8:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure, lol
[8:47] Moon Adamant: sure
[8:47] Patroklus Murakami: in the olds sdf
[8:47] Jon Seattle: But I think that I really can't tell the SDF members what to do..
[8:47] Patroklus Murakami: how did u choose candidates?
[8:47] Patroklus Murakami: with only nburg city members ?
[8:48] Patroklus Murakami: or the whole party?
[8:48] Patroklus Murakami: seems strange to me that ppl outside the city shd be able to influence nburg politics
[8:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm all members who were citizens were part of the list
[8:48] Jon Seattle: It does!
[8:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but at that time
[8:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ALL members of the party were citizens!
[8:48] Patroklus Murakami: aah
[8:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This only changed after ulrika left.
[8:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Naturally so
[8:49] Jon Seattle shakes his head
[8:49] Moon Adamant: but nevertheless
[8:49] Moon Adamant: with time
[8:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We had some 'historical' members from the Anzere time, who never became citizens
[8:49] Patroklus Murakami: just so my intentions are clear
[8:49] Patroklus Murakami: i intend to contact cid and eugene
[8:49] Moon Adamant: people left teh city in several occasions previous to this situation and kept to the SDF
[8:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Patroklus  that should be a good idea!
[8:50] Moon Adamant: that happened in my case, i think
[8:50] Patroklus Murakami: and ask if they want to fill the vacant RA spaces
[8:50] Patroklus Murakami: if any of youi decide to join 'old' sdf
[8:50] Patroklus Murakami: i'll invite u too
[8:50] Moon Adamant: kk
[8:50] Patroklus Murakami: now on to the new party!
[8:50] Moon Adamant: lol
[8:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Transition period"  I like the idea.
[8:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And lol
[8:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[8:50] Moon Adamant: i think i must say at this point
[8:50] Jon Seattle nods "seems only fair. I did join the SDF, but droped it for now. I think I need to look forward."
[8:51] Moon Adamant: that i have no intention of joining the old SDF, Pat
[8:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* & agrees with Jon
[8:51] Patroklus Murakami: that's fine moon, i totally understand where yoiur'e coming from
[8:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: neither do I, but in any case, I wasn't elegible anyway.
[8:51] Jon Seattle smiles
[8:51] Moon Adamant: while these issues aren't settled for good
[8:51] Moon Adamant: kk
[8:52] Patroklus Murakami: on to item 2?
[8:52] Moon Adamant: so what should teh minutes read for this
[8:52] Moon Adamant: or shall i write them and later on we discuss it?
[8:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That we'll try to get the 2 seats filled, but move on for a new party for the upcoming elections?
[8:52] Moon Adamant: ok
[8:52] Jon Seattle nods
[8:53] Jon Seattle: Sounds good.
[8:53] Patroklus Murakami: that we regard filling the RA seats as a matter for the sdf but we intend to establish a new faction
[8:53] Patroklus Murakami: which sdf members are welcome to join
[8:53] Patroklus Murakami: sound ok?
[8:53] Jon Seattle: I think so!
[8:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sounds perfect to me.
[8:53] Moon Adamant: it now redas:
[8:53] Moon Adamant: A. Extraordinary point: A.1Discussion of SDF situation
[8:54] Moon Adamant: Participants commented the SDF situation. All participants declared that in tehir opinion a new party should be formed unconnected with SDF. As for the elected 2 SDF seats in RA, consense ran that there will be efforts made to get the 2 seats filled, but
[8:54] Moon Adamant: move on for a new party for the upcoming elections.
[8:54] Jon Seattle: Hi!
[8:54] Moon Adamant: i'll check the typos later on, lol
[8:54] Patroklus Murakami: hi sudane
[8:54] Sudane Erato: hi
[8:54] Moon Adamant: hi Sudane
[8:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi Sudane And thanks for helping out with the bubbles, lol
[8:54] Sudane Erato: my... a big group!
[8:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe the Neo-SDF
[8:54] Moon Adamant:
[8:54] Sudane Erato: oh,,, right... organizing
[8:54] Jon Seattle is impressed by flexyhair
[8:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: very, very nice hair, Sudane
[8:55] Sudane Erato: yes1 I love it! at last hair that moves
[8:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
[8:55] Jon Seattle: Shall we move on to item 2?
[8:55] Patroklus Murakami: sure
[8:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes.
[8:56] Sudane Erato: do you just want it returned?
[8:56] Jon Seattle: I have some comments. I will just paste into chat? OR should I pass around notecards
[8:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: beware of it, Sudane
[8:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops, Moon crashed
[8:56] Patroklus Murakami: either ok by me
[8:56] Sudane Erato: Mael Marx
[8:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can we wait just a bit until she comes back?
[8:56] Sudane Erato: was the owner
[8:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaaah
[8:56] Jon Seattle: Yes, lets wait.
[8:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Sudane!
[8:56] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[8:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sorry for bothering you, but those bubbles were getting on our nerves, lol
[8:57] Sudane Erato: hehe
[8:57] Sudane Erato: np
[8:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, lag actually went down a bit!
[8:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Whew
[8:57] Jon Seattle: No problem! : )
[8:57] Jon Seattle: Much better.
[8:58] Sudane Erato: well.. I'm back to work
[8:58] Sudane Erato: see you all
[8:58] Patroklus Murakami: bye sudane.ty:)
[8:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry for the interruption, Sudane, and thanks again!
[8:58] Jon Seattle: Thanks Sudane!
[8:58] Sudane Erato: np at all!!
[8:58] Sudane Erato:
[8:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon should be in shortly...
[8:59] Jon Seattle: WB!
[8:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And here she is, yay!
[8:59] Patroklus Murakami: welcome back
[8:59] Moon Adamant: thanks, hi again
[8:59] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:00] Moon Adamant: let me just check what i can get from teh minutes
[9:00] Jon Seattle nods
[9:00] Moon Adamant: bah, lost them all
[9:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww poor Moon!
[9:01] Moon Adamant: well, gwyn
[9:01] Moon Adamant: you'll read me later what i read from then
[9:01] Moon Adamant: let's move on anyway
[9:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok...
[9:01] Patroklus Murakami: ok
[9:01] Jon Seattle: Okay.
[9:01] Jon Seattle: Here are my remarks: prepared earlier
[9:02] Patroklus Murakami: go for it jon!
[9:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let's hear them!
[9:02] Jon Seattle: I am going to skip part.. we already covered it.
[9:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[9:02] Jon Seattle: So I want to form this party because it is the only way we can fully participate in the community and its future.
[9:03] Jon Seattle: With democratic liberals, we agree that societies are formed through the consent of their members and that everyone has the right to have a say.
[9:03] Jon Seattle: The way in while social democrats go beyond liberalism is that we think societies should be organized to care about and for people. Societies should be organized to make sure people have the tools to develop themselves through their own labor.
[9:03] Jon Seattle: Anything less is not democracy. If you do not have the resources to educate yourself, or if you have to struggle every waking hour to get what you need to support your family, then you do not have the right to participate in democratic decision making.
[9:03] Jon Seattle: I did not know much abut the SDF, but I think that this time we have to make the party reflect our democratic values. That is not to have one person write the platform alone. This needs to be a citizen’s party, built on effective consensus.
[9:04] Jon Seattle: So, if you believe in these these values, I hope you will join in creating this new Citizen’s Social Democratic Party.
[9:04] Jon Seattle: -- end of comments!
[9:04] Patroklus Murakami: with u so fare
[9:04] Patroklus Murakami: *far
[9:04] Moon Adamant: hear hear!
[9:04] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:04] Jon Seattle: My attempt to put sd values into two paragraphs.
[9:04] Moon Adamant: after Pat speaks
[9:05] Patroklus Murakami: so core values are democracy, participation and providing the potential for self-expression and self-realisation
[9:05] Jon Seattle: Absolutly. I think.
[9:05] Moon Adamant: Pat?
[9:06] Patroklus Murakami: i think we also need to consider values related to artisans work and the power imbalances in our virtual world
[9:06] Jon Seattle nods
9:07] Patroklus Murakami: i.e. we are for independnt creative content creators and critical of promotion of land baronry for example
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What would you suggest, Patroklus?
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.... hmm
[9:07] Jon Seattle listens
[9:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: here I must naturally step in
[9:08] Moon Adamant: hmmm, heavy chat lag spikes
[9:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* to speak afterwards
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: go on gwyn
[9:08] Moon Adamant: go on gwyn
[9:08] Moon Adamant: while i see what's happening here
[9:08] Patroklus Murakami: is gwyn frozen?
[9:09] Moon Adamant: btw, Jon, i'll join your text to the minutes.
[9:09] Moon Adamant: hmmm
[9:09] Moon Adamant pokes gwyn
[9:09] Jon Seattle: Thaks moon!
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry
[9:09] Jon Seattle: Gwyn?
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... well
[9:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What are 'independent' content creators?
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, what is the opposite of an independent content creator?
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, what is so terrible about land barons? If they pay taxes, they can very well do all their baroning.... the surplus will go back into the city
[9:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was it.
[9:11] Jon Seattle: Ah, land barrons within or outside of NB?
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, i'm thinking aloud and not using v good terms i mean individual and collective artisans and content creators -designers scriptors etc.
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm absolutely totally in favour of "land barons", even in N'burg, if they can be 'forced' to commit to a code of conduct, to be set up by our Chamber of Commerce
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok patroklus
[9:11] Jon Seattle listens
[9:11] Patroklus Murakami: i think land barons provide a useful servive, i'm not agianst them per se. but SL is set up to favour land barons over the little guy
[9:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This is about IP rights?
[9:12] Jon Seattle has a question
[9:12] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[9:12] Patroklus Murakami: e.g the land fees are crippling for ppl with less money and easier teh more yoiu have
[9:12] Moon Adamant: i think what we are talking here is a fundamental principle of Justice
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and hehe that might have been true in the past, but with the L$ falling, land baroning is now the least profitable activity in SL... you can earn more from camping chairs... but that's another story)
[9:12] Moon Adamant: all individuals are equal as regards teh law
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye
[9:12] Moon Adamant: independently of other factors
[9:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That is crucial, yes
[9:12] Jon Seattle nods
[9:13] Moon Adamant: sorry, it's really to get the discussion to the point
[9:13] Moon Adamant: we are talking genr«eal principles here i think
[9:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We are indeed.
[9:13] Moon Adamant: how those principles apply is programmatic matter
[9:13] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: i guess my point is that there is nothing inherently social democratic in what we have agree so far. a liberl could sign up ot our values. i'm trying to insert a little steel in our programme
[9:14] Moon Adamant: lol
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[9:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a good point, patroklus
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: something that some ppl won't like
[9:14] Moon Adamant: can i break in now?
[9:14] Patroklus Murakami: pls do moon
[9:15] Moon Adamant: because my proposal is derived completely from the principles of Socialist International ;
[9:15] Moon Adamant:
[9:15] Moon Adamant: http://www.socialistinternational.org/4 ... fpeng.html
[9:15] Patroklus Murakami: u have my attention
[9:15] Moon Adamant: so i propose
[9:15] Moon Adamant: as fundamental principles
[9:15] Jon Seattle: I like those. Rather long list however
[9:15] Moon Adamant: those there stated
[9:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Long yes, but also covering everything
[9:15] Moon Adamant: Freedom, Justice and Solidarity Democracy and Human Rights
[9:15] Jon Seattle smiles at Moon
[9:16] Moon Adamant: Freedom as regards the absolute freedom of individuals as foundamental right
[9:17] Moon Adamant: Justice as the absolute equality
[9:17] Moon Adamant: Solidarity - here it goes the social-democratic thingy, Pat
[9:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:17] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:18] Patroklus Murakami: i can happily sign up to all of that. and i think it says all we need to about principles
[9:18] Moon Adamant: Democracy, as the fundamental society principal and guarantee of the above principles
[9:18] Moon Adamant: principle*
[9:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The people rule"
[9:18] Moon Adamant: sorry about all the typos 
[9:19] Moon Adamant: and now only Gwyn's proposals to hear
[9:19] Jon Seattle: I like it.
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I have not really much more to add, except for defining "social" in terms of SL
[9:19] Jon Seattle raises hand
[9:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since we don't need 'healthcare', retirement issues, providing for the homeless, etc
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should just focus on education, and culture/arts
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And a distribution of surplus (raised throgh taxes, city profit, etc) to those areas
[9:20] Moon Adamant places her hand up
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The rest well  as Moon said, they're self-evident values.
[9:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now.
[9:20] Moon Adamant: i have one thing to add there Gwyn
[9:21] Moon Adamant: picking up what Patroklus said
[9:21] Moon Adamant: and that is
[9:21] Moon Adamant: maybe 'social' here also means
[9:21] Moon Adamant: that we defend at least the good practice as regards economic transactions?
[9:21] Jon Seattle: I think my focus on self-actualization comes out of my interest in education. Not only for its own sake, but as part of a plan for econmic development here in NB.
[9:22] Moon Adamant: ah jon, the IS principles ahve a lot to say about that as well .)
[9:22] Moon Adamant: but i think
[9:22] Moon Adamant: anyway
[9:22] Moon Adamant: that Patroklus is right when he points out
[9:23] Moon Adamant: that we should also make a statement about economy
[9:23] Moon Adamant: economical process, i mean
[9:23] Jon Seattle: I agree with that.. Also I was going to say to Gwyn, that we should choose out land barons carfully!
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: i think there is a point to make about resources but it is a tough one, shall i elaborate?
[9:24] Moon Adamant: i don't mean: 'Fight the Kapital Monster!', lol
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: lol
[9:24] Moon Adamant: please do
[9:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: in a virtual world such as ours the only truly scarce resources are land and prims
[9:24] Moon Adamant: agreed
[9:24] Patroklus Murakami: the rich can buy them
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: as many as they need or want
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* true...
[9:25] Moon Adamant: áh
[9:25] Jon Seattle raises his hand
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: social democracy should involve giving access to prims and land to those who have talent but no money
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-huh
[9:25] Jon Seattle cheers
[9:25] Moon Adamant: very good point!
[9:25] Patroklus Murakami: from each according to their abilities
[9:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn totally agrees.
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: to each according to their needs
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: nburg provides some of this
[9:26] Moon Adamant: yup
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: by high quality public spaces
[9:26] Jon Seattle nods
[9:26] Patroklus Murakami: there is potential to devleop this ideas further i think
[9:26] Moon Adamant: indeed
[9:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, as a statement, I guess this is a good starting point.
[9:27] Jon Seattle: I think so.
[9:27] Moon Adamant: you made a very important point
[9:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The *how* we do that would go into the programme for the election.
[9:27] Moon Adamant: yes Gwyn
[9:27] Jon Seattle: I want to say something about RL vs. SL
[9:27] Moon Adamant: please Jon
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: the *how* is v tough!
[9:27] Patroklus Murakami: pls do jon
[9:28] Jon Seattle: Mainly, that we are people, not just avitars. I don't think I would completly rule out working on issues that are not strictly SL issues. Perhaps even health?!
[9:28] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:28] Moon Adamant:
[9:29] Moon Adamant: well, theer are currently health related groups in SL
[9:29] Moon Adamant: these groups provide support for people
[9:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[9:29] Jon Seattle: It is just a thought.
[9:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, psychological help (and that is a vast field) could surely fall under our ideas...
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good point...
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: i'd be wary of mixing too much RL with SL politics for now. the dpu were v successful by focussing on bread and butter nburg isssues
[9:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Perhaps even my religious meetings on (some) Sundays would count as social work, hehe
[9:30] Moon Adamant: i think of course a social-democratic governement could work with them... maybe giving them city space for meetings, HQs etc
[9:30] Patroklus Murakami: i think our programme will be the key things
[9:30] Jon Seattle: I had an idea that I mentioned to Gwin, that might also help address some of Pat's 'how' question, but it is not a priciple, more of a potential project.
[9:31] Moon Adamant: i agree with Jon that there is room for a 'social' work inside teh party scope
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[9:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree then
[9:31] Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to hear about it
[9:31] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:31] Moon Adamant: but i must agree also with Pat that most of electorate will want to see immediate issues of NB solved
[9:31] Jon Seattle nods
[9:32] Moon Adamant: so i think
[9:32] Moon Adamant: social concerns belong to our principles indeed
[9:32] Moon Adamant: and that HOW too here is a programmatic thingy
[9:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Programme should be pragmatic, but the manifesto should be ideologic...
[9:33] Moon Adamant: yes Gwyn, again you said it in a prettier way
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami agrees that we need both and a balance bewteen the two
[9:33] Patroklus Murakami: *between
[9:33] Jon Seattle: I think what I am trying to say is less that we should focus on those issues, and more that we can consider ourselves a real social-democratic group. Real in every way even if our focus is on SL concerns.
[9:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or we could split both  fundamentals go into the manifesto, pragmatic work go into the programme, and we just underline how they fit into the overall ideology.
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh Jon  I certainly agree. Let me give two examples, if I may...
[9:34] Moon Adamant: please Gwyn
[9:34] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: N'burg School and the MoCA are clearly *social* issues.
[9:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The current government, mostly DPU-lead
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wished both of these to be part of private endeavours
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, i have nothing against the private running 'social' projects
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but I think the Government has failed to offer due *supervision* of those.
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: MoCA has been failing utterly (we're now on the FIFTH ateempt to set it up)!
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami: agreed
[9:35] Moon Adamant: agree as well
[9:35] Jon Seattle: yes, I get that impression
[9:35] Patroklus Murakami nods
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, a social-democratic approach would be: these things can be left in the hands of the privates, sure
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no harm there
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but since they're *social* projects, and they even carry the name (and thus the blessing) of the City
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they should be overseen, supervised, controlled
[9:36] Pelanor Eldrich: City Hall of sours
[9:36] Pelanor Eldrich: sorts
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and if a group is failing to meet their purposes
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: another should run it.
[9:36] Patroklus Murakami sniggers "Gwyn said privates. Tee hee!"
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (mind you, nothing against the people running those projects, ok?? Rather the contrary. I just think that a SD approach would judge them harder)
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: is pel here?
[9:37] Jon Seattle: Not sure?
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At the Marktplatz, Patroklus.
[9:37] Jon Seattle: Ah!
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Lots of people are there hehe
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: ah!
[9:37] Moon Adamant: listening to our very words
[9:37] Moon Adamant: anyway
[9:37] Patroklus Murakami: oh my! eavesdroppers!
[9:37] Moon Adamant: i find what you said is important gwyn
[9:38] Moon Adamant: because
[9:38] Jon Seattle laughs at the idea of a city hall of sours
[9:38] Moon Adamant: apart from principles
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (they are over 20 m away so they don't hear us!)
[9:38] Patroklus Murakami: yes, me too. good points gwyn
[9:38] Moon Adamant: ideologically we should also define ourselves as regards government
[9:38] Moon Adamant: and governement action
[9:38] Moon Adamant: as a csocil-democrat
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree.
[9:38] Moon Adamant: i fully agree with you
[9:39] Jon Seattle nods
[9:39] Pelanor Eldrich: We conduct gov't meetings here and record them, transcripts availble on the website.
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: yup
[9:39] Moon Adamant: Government roles are legislation and hmmm
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thos should be our guidelines on the programme for the upcoming elections, although, naturally, we have to address other things as well (ie. continuity aspects)
[9:39] Moon Adamant: better
[9:39] Moon Adamant: regulation and overseeing, and re-distribution of wealth
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: i'd like to push the current admin on transparency for example
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *coughs* right
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: hehe
[9:40] Moon Adamant: lol
[9:40] Jon Seattle: yes.
[9:40] Moon Adamant: so can we move on to the writing down of these?
[9:40] Moon Adamant: at least in teh minutes
[9:41] Pelanor Eldrich: Up here is the biergarten...we have big Oktoberfests!
[9:41] Moon Adamant: i think w'll have to write the charter elsewhere, we don't have time
[9:41] Alexandre Groshomme: oops sorry ArielI might have bumped you
[9:41] Ariel Abernathy: lol
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I subscribe to that, Moon
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: yes, good luck with summarising the discussion!
[9:41] Pelanor Eldrich: np
[9:41] Pelanor Eldrich:
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: here comes the audience, LOL
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: shoo, shoo
[9:41] Ariel Abernathy: sorry
[9:41] Moon Adamant: hiya Pelanor
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: hi pel
[9:41] Moon Adamant: so hmmmm
[9:41] Jon Seattle: Hi!
[9:41] Pelanor Eldrich: Hi all, just showing some intersted tourists around.
[9:41] Patroklus Murakami: better hide the gunpowder
[9:42] Moon Adamant: i will ask for a formal voting on this
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless you're interested in discussing the upcoming new social-democratic faction in N'burg, I'm afraid we're going to bore you all to death...
[9:42] Pelanor Eldrich: Here we grab a pint and talk.
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Talk, discuss, do politics... hehe
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: btw, formal event here next Monday, 3 PM SL time.
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On "creativity in SL"
[9:42] Moon Adamant: yes politics at the moment
[9:42] Jon Seattle: Good!
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A Linden will be present
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: <--- is FIC
[9:43] Pelanor Eldrich: Want to see more buildings Alex or want to hang out here?
[9:43] Alexandre Groshomme: we lost Ariel
[9:43] Alexandre Groshomme: can you send her a tp ?
[9:43] Pelanor Eldrich: Maybe she's downstairs...
[9:44] Ariel Abernathy: i'm looking for you.
[9:44] Alexandre Groshomme: that sucks I am stuck in 800x600 with the linux client
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: awww poor Alex!
[9:44] Alexandre Groshomme: I can reach the tp button...lol
[9:44] Ariel Abernathy: ?
[9:44] Pelanor Eldrich: Hi Ariel!
[9:45] Pelanor Eldrich: I think you're flying
[9:45] Pelanor Eldrich: aha
[9:45] Patroklus Murakami: try hiding the chat bar, works for me when i'm in small screen mode
[9:45] Ariel Abernathy: hi
[9:45] Pelanor Eldrich:
[9:45] Moon Adamant: ah, before the voting
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, that could work indeed.
[9:45] Pelanor Eldrich: We're in the biergargten
[9:45] Moon Adamant: we must discuss also what are the fundamental texts for our charter
[9:45] Alexandre Groshomme: Good ideau
[9:45] Pelanor Eldrich: c'mon up!
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok guys... hmm... should we move on to point #2? We were discussing a bit of #3 and #4
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed, Moon
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol  my thoughts exactly, Moon!
[9:46] Jon Seattle: Lets see if we can come up with a plan to pin down #2.
[9:46] Moon Adamant: we are in point 2 gwyn
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We are, hmm?
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[9:46] Moon Adamant: yes
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you say so
[9:46] Moon Adamant: 2.1
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[9:46] Moon Adamant: ok
[9:46] Moon Adamant: about fundamental texts
[9:46] Moon Adamant: these are the texts that though not part of our charter
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we'll have to leave the "writing down" of the ideas for a later stage
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah ok
[9:47] Moon Adamant: are foundamental for teh scope of it
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Declaration of Human Rights...
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: do u meand beyond the texts we've discused so far?
[9:47] Moon Adamant: exactly
[9:47] Moon Adamant: and yes Pat
[9:47] Alexandre Groshomme: sorry about the delay.my screen is too small..lol
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... the things that you get at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_International ...
[9:47] Moon Adamant: the ToS is another one
[9:47] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps someone could make a proposal to clear by email?
[9:48] Jon Seattle: There was just one point in the socialist international program that I would modify, and not relivant to SL really.
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ToS, sure, yes...
[9:48] Pelanor Eldrich: alex and ariel we can hang out or so some more buildings, just let me know what you'd like.
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Jon?
[9:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which one?
[9:48] Pelanor Eldrich: *see
[9:48] Moon Adamant: Pat, what do you think of asking the NB foum mods to allow us to open a party thread there?
[9:49] Alexandre Groshomme: what else do you think we should visit to have a good idea of NeuenAltenburg ?
[9:49] Moon Adamant: and Jon and Gwyn too, lol - just because Pat suggested email
[9:49] Jon Seattle: Ah, the one on working with human DNA. There may be some important health technologies that may come out of genetic thiropies. Needs to be done carfully though.
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: oooh! now there's an idea!
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, well, Jon  I'll leave that out, yes
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And sure, Pat, we can do that, I think.
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean setting up a new group forum
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *now* at least we have some options there hehe
[9:50] Pelanor Eldrich: We have the Schloss which is our castle, the Museum of Contemporary Art, the School, which is quite nice. A bridge and we have a media center and land outside the city walls, feel free to just fly around.
[9:50] Moon Adamant: obviously not as an exception - as part of a party space for all politicla factions
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (don't forget the Church, pelanor )
[9:50] Pelanor Eldrich: We have a small library, (we did that)
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: i think we're a bit too esoteric for the SL forums. (realise my position is a littel contradictory) but perhaps we should settel on teh official nburg forum for now
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn is partial to the Church
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aaah
[9:50] Moon Adamant: i meant the forums at neuatenburg.info
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Patroklus, I think that Moon meant the N'burg Forums
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry Moon ... hehe
[9:51] Jon Seattle likes the chirch too
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: phew1
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: !
[9:51] Pelanor Eldrich: Gwyn is Dean, which is like the chief justice.
[9:51] Moon Adamant: lol Pat
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn is embarassed
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: yes, we should and that it much better than email
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: i'm a forum fan
[9:51] Pelanor Eldrich: I can show you the castle...
[9:51] Moon Adamant: yup, i personally have a bit of difficulty tracking down discussions in emails
[9:51] Jon Seattle: I think that might work better for pinning down the text -- the forum.
[9:52] Moon Adamant: yes
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, let's do that.
[9:52] Jon Seattle nods
[9:52] Moon Adamant: my proposal is that the writing down of charter is moved there
[9:52] Moon Adamant: kk
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'll just send an email to the other forum moderators... but
[9:52] Jon Seattle: Aye
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: have we agreed on a name yet?
[9:52] Moon Adamant: by unanimity?
[9:52] Moon Adamant: Gwyn
[9:52] Moon Adamant: just a sec
[9:53] Ariel Abernathy: Thanks for showing me about Pelanor. I need to get back to SL now.
[9:53] Alexandre Groshomme: RL maybe ^^
[9:53] Pelanor Eldrich: No prob, come back anytime and fly around!
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for coming, Airel
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: how about the judean people's popular front?
[9:53] Moon Adamant: we agree all that writing down of charter text is moving to a forum space in nburg.info, it they give us that space?
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *Ariel
[9:53] Alexandre Groshomme: ok it was nice meeting you Ariel
[9:53] Pelanor Eldrich: Nice meeting you!
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would agree to that, Moon.
[9:53] Ariel Abernathy: Thanks for the tour.
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One that is blocked to Ulrika (heh)
[9:54] Pelanor Eldrich: My pleasure, happy to show the rest at your convienience.
[9:54] Moon Adamant: Jon, Pat?
[9:54] Jon Seattle: Yes, UZ needs to be blocked.
[9:54] Jon Seattle: Nice to meet you Alex and Ari
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's easier now, hehe
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: hmmm. why block uz if she can still post on teh main official forum?
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can set up a group forum, where only we can post, but anyone can read (transparency!)
[9:55] Pelanor Eldrich: Hi Alex, it appears we walked into a political meeting, looks like they're trying to form a new faction (party).
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed pelanor, hehe
[9:55] Alexandre Groshomme: Oh I see
[9:55] Moon Adamant: yes pelanor
[9:55] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: quite right pel, but you're welcome to see us in action
[9:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, transparency always.
[9:55] Moon Adamant: ye slol
[9:56] Jon Seattle: That sounds good to me.
[9:56] Pelanor Eldrich: Of course *ahem I'm serving in the ruling party (faction), so maybe they should have locked the door.
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There is no door...
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:56] Pelanor Eldrich: But they're open and want to convert me so I see the light.
[9:56] Jon Seattle: : )
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes
[9:56] Patroklus Murakami: do we really want to restrict discussion ot ourselves?
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn gathers some AAA batteries for 'the light'
[9:56] Pelanor Eldrich: Alex, let me show you around a bit more...
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: i think that ppl outside the faction will have interesting points to make
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It was just a suggestion, Patroklus  I guess that several would indeed like to join in, but couldn't make it today.
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: why are we so scared of UZ?
[9:57] Pelanor Eldrich: Guys, I'll brb, just want ot show alex around a bit.
[9:57] Jon Seattle: It depends. I do think we need to move quickly to having a platform.
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not scared, pissed off...
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, overreaction
[9:57] Alexandre Groshomme: oh it's ok if you want to partyicipate
[9:57] Alexandre Groshomme: I'll try to come back for the discussion anyway
[9:58] Moon Adamant: sure
[9:58] Pelanor Eldrich: I can come right back, they'll have questions ready for me. I want them to be able to talk strategy in my absence. An election is coming up.
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: youre' welcome alex
[9:58] Moon Adamant: well
[9:58] Pelanor Eldrich: If you want to stay, that's fine...I'll just run along for about 5 mins.
[9:58] Alexandre Groshomme: well I have to go to
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe we're popular today
[9:59] Jon Seattle laughs
[9:59] Alexandre Groshomme: so maybe see you later at the discussion
[9:59] Alexandre Groshomme: thanks for showing me around !
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is there another discussion later??
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
[9:59] Moon Adamant: Alexandre and Pelanor: If you'd like to stay , please do. the agenda we're following is inside taht blue prim, just click
[9:59] Pelanor Eldrich: Ok, no prob, I understand, it was great meeting you, I don't want to leave you with the impression that we're all politics
[9:59] Jon Seattle: Okay, lets set up the forum. My preference would be no UZ, but open otherwise.
[9:59] Alexandre Groshomme: 3 PM
[9:59] Pelanor Eldrich: Fly around and see!
[9:59] Alexandre Groshomme: right ?
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh!
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And ok on that, Jon
[10:00] Moon Adamant: kk, Pat, you approve as well, i think?
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: of an open forum? yes
[10:00] Alexandre Groshomme: Politics is good anyway
[10:00] Moon Adamant: yes
[10:00] Moon Adamant: ok
[10:00] Alexandre Groshomme: Ok see you guys later
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: bye Alex!
[10:00] Jon Seattle: See you alex
[10:00] Moon Adamant: so that's unanimity fo rthis
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: bye alex
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok, and an open forum it'll be,.
[10:00] Moon Adamant: bye alex
[10:00] Pelanor Eldrich: Bye Alex, thanks for coming by! and Nice meeting you!
[10:00] Moon Adamant: let me call the meeting into order again
[10:01] Jon Seattle: Good!
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: lol
[10:01] Moon Adamant: this was point 2.2
[10:01] Moon Adamant: but as for point 2.1?
[10:01] Jon Seattle: #3
[10:01] Jon Seattle: Ah
[10:01] Jon Seattle: Lag
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dicsussion of the principles?
[10:01] Moon Adamant: should we record in the meetings already what our principles are, even if shortly?
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should yes
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[10:01] Moon Adamant: leaving the explanation and writing down for charter thread?
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that from the trasncript here
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we might find enough information for those.
[10:02] Moon Adamant: kk
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: they form the basis for further discussion and they're a good starting point
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And then it's just embellishing it in writing, hehe. That could be done on the forums..
[10:02] Jon Seattle: Yes, I think it a good idea
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Good
[10:02] Moon Adamant: so hmmm
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: brb
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: phone
[10:02] Pelanor Eldrich: CDSP?
[10:02] Moon Adamant: kk
[10:03] Pelanor Eldrich accepted your inventory offer.
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[10:03] Jon Seattle: Next?
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that was meant to Patroklus, Pelanor, lol
[10:03] Moon Adamant: wait wait
[10:03] Jon Seattle: lol
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:03] Patroklus Murakami accepted your inventory offer.
[10:03] Moon Adamant: principles:
[10:03] Moon Adamant: shall we trancribe them into minutes from chat log, then?
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do agree.
[10:04] Jon Seattle: yes.
[10:04] Moon Adamant: lets wait for Pat too to have his say
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[10:04] Moon Adamant: i remind you only that
[10:04] Patroklus Murakami: back
[10:04] Moon Adamant: wb
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome back, Pat!
[10:04] Jon Seattle: wb : )
[10:04] Moon Adamant: by writing minutes from chatlog
[10:05] Moon Adamant: that you approval of minutes will be needed
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: fine with minutes from chat log
[10:05] Moon Adamant: i propose that the chatlog and minutes be then also transcribed into teh thread
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm fine with that as well.
[10:05] Moon Adamant: and i ask then someone who hasn't crashed yet to feed me the chatlog .)
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, perhaps we could edit out the lines from our visitors.... hehe
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: who's keeping the log?
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Moon, i will
[10:05] Jon Seattle: Good. perhaps edited to remove interruptions?
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami: k
[10:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees with Jon
[10:06] Moon Adamant: kk
[10:06] Patroklus Murakami agrees too
[10:06] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:06] Moon Adamant: so point 2.1 will be written down assummarized from chat log
[10:06] Moon Adamant: ok
[10:06] Moon Adamant: point 3!
[10:07] Pint of Neubrau whispers: Prost!
[10:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yay!
[10:07] ZHAO: New sitting animation: !_sit
[10:07] Jon Seattle: At one point I asked Kendra about SDF, and if there were meetings. Got very noncommital anser. My preference would be a party that meets regularly.
[10:07] ZHAO: New sitting animation: sit-crossed-05
[10:07] Jon Seattle: Welcomes direct participation.
[10:07] Patroklus Murakami: agreed
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was no meeting that *I* was invited to.
[10:08] Moon Adamant lists her hand
[10:08] Moon Adamant: lifts*, lol
[10:08] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: when we have RA members w should have faction meetings in advance to agree a common line
[10:08] Cigarette: Commands are: '/52043 light', '/52043 inhale', '/52043 extinguish'
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: sorry moon, go ahead
[10:08] Pelanor Eldrich: I'm happy to offer my house, only because it's got an open plan it's next to the RA
[10:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I do agree.
[10:09] Moon Adamant: oh, please end your reasoning Pat
[10:09] Pelanor Eldrich: Or you can use the existing Cid Jacobs library.
[10:09] Moon Adamant: i can also offer my house here
[10:09] Moon Adamant: it has no other use, really
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: well, i think a problem with the sdf was...
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Places are no problem.
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: that the reps just made it up as they went
[10:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes well
[10:09] Patroklus Murakami: there was no party discussion first
[10:09] Jon Seattle nods
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: i think that there should be
[10:10] Jon Seattle: I agree
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There was no party discussion at all, although there was a *bit* of discussion (very informally) before a RA meeting
[10:10] Moon Adamant: more than that even Pat, sorry to inteerupt
[10:10] Patroklus Murakami: that's all
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But not always, though
[10:10] Moon Adamant: there wasn't any hmmm
[10:10] Moon Adamant: well... how were the leaders elected?
[10:10] Pelanor Eldrich: You know, BTW that gmail and google chat are great ways to talk politics, even at work. The DPU uses that.
[10:11] Moon Adamant: how did bases participate in party strategy?
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Gtalk for me: [email protected]
[10:12] Moon Adamant: [email protected]
[10:12] Pelanor Eldrich: [email protected]
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon: the old SDF was very simple. UZ put up the manifesto, and wrote the programme for each election. End of story.
[10:12] Patroklus Murakami: [email protected]
[10:12] Pelanor Eldrich: How very democratic.Lol
[10:12] Jon Seattle: Eek! I am glad we are moving on.
[10:12] Moon Adamant: lol Pelanor, but you're right
[10:13] Moon Adamant: hmmm Pat, what messenger client is that? or it isn't?
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You can sign up on Gtalk with any address these days...
[10:14] Jon Seattle thinks he needs to sign up for a jon.seattle gmail account.
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: it isnt'. email only. i also have [email protected] but havent' used gtalk
[10:14] Pelanor Eldrich: is gtalk chat or voip?
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Both, these days.
[10:14] Moon Adamant: both
[10:14] Moon Adamant: it's lovely
[10:15] Pelanor Eldrich: k,i've used the chat
[10:15] Jon Seattle: [email protected] (but it is a real email account, so please keep under hat. : ) )
[10:15] Moon Adamant: Jon, do you want an invite for Gmail?
[10:15] Pelanor Eldrich: knows Gwyn rather eat razorblades than use VOIP. LOL.
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So you mean the others are not real?
[10:15] Moon Adamant: lol pel
[10:15] Jon Seattle: Moon, that would be great!
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And lol Pelanor  actually, I sound like having eaten razorblades, yes.
[10:15] Moon Adamant: kk, just a sec then
[10:15] Jon Seattle: LOL Gwyn
[10:16] Moon Adamant: ok, invited you
[10:16] Jon Seattle: Thanks!
[10:16] Moon Adamant: while we finish this exchange, let me go get a cup of water, brb
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: so, i assume we don't want to follow the autocrat style? do we need to agree faction positions and responsibiliteis?
[10:17] Jon Seattle goes for water too
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: (make is a glass of wine for me:)
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: *it
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I eman, I would agree on faction positions & responsabilities
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and having a properly elected Secretary-General
[10:18] Moon Adamant: back
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which could (or not) be the same person as the Leader of the RA, if elected, but would not need to be
[10:18] Moon Adamant: and a definetely NO for authoritarian style
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, the party should have open meetings, where the leader could naturally be replaced
[10:18] Jon Seattle: Back
[10:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and a list of responsabilities and duties for the leader as well
[10:19] Moon Adamant: after you, Gwyn
[10:19] Moon Adamant: ohm ok
[10:19] Moon Adamant: well, i agree fully with you Gwyn
[10:19] Moon Adamant: even more
[10:19] Jon Seattle agrees heartally with moon
[10:19] Moon Adamant: i think the following:
[10:19] Patroklus Murakami nods in agreement
[10:19] Moon Adamant: IF
[10:19] Moon Adamant: we have democracy as a principle
[10:20] Moon Adamant: we should begin by organizing ourselves according to that principle
[10:20] Moon Adamant: seems to me
[10:20] Moon Adamant: that if we do not do it like that
[10:20] Moon Adamant: we are void from teh beginning
[10:20] Jon Seattle: Yes. The one issue is that we should ask people to agree to the pricipals if they want to participate.
[10:21] Moon Adamant: well, we can now discuss the procedures
[10:21] Patroklus Murakami: yes
[10:21] Moon Adamant: those can be stated hmmm
[10:21] Moon Adamant: as well, in first place, appliance of members
[10:21] Jon Seattle: ?
[10:22] Moon Adamant: i agree with you Jon that an endorsement of principles is needed
[10:22] Moon Adamant: application, sorry
[10:22] Moon Adamant: LOL
[10:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn also heartily agrees with all that!
[10:22] Jon Seattle: LOL I liked the appliance thing.
[10:22] Moon Adamant: (sorry guys, i am very tired - my english is generally a bit better)
[10:22] Patroklus Murakami: what positions etc do we need to agree today? i'm getting tired too!
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well:
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: leader? interim leader?
[10:23] Jon Seattle: No problem moon! I do not even have that excuse and I mistype all of the time
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - how do people enter the faction (ie. approval committee, endorsement by 2 members, etc)
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - how often to meet
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - how to elect the leader
[10:23] Moon Adamant: nice summary Gwyn
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - how to participate/discuss the election programme
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: yes, v concises
[10:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - how to *change* the manifesto (hehe)
[10:24] Patroklus Murakami: *concise
[10:24] Moon Adamant: lol gwyn
[10:24] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Very rare, in my case, I'd say
[10:24] Moon Adamant: 'ammending teh constitution' ...
[10:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:24] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:24] Moon Adamant: suggestions?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: open enrollment?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: anyone can join?
[10:25] Jon Seattle: Meet every week until elections, and perhaps every two after that?
[10:25] Patroklus Murakami: frequency sounds ok
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, admittance: - free to join, proposal to the Secretary-General, but anybody has to be voted in by a simple majority of the General Assembly (same for expelling someone)
[10:25] Moon Adamant: hmmm, non-citizens as well? Pat
[10:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (that is just one possible suggestion!)
[10:25] Moon Adamant: and i agree to Jon's suggestion on frequency
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would restrict it to citizens.
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: i would restrict is to citizens
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless hmm
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Pat
[10:26] Jon Seattle: I think we can consider another organization for non-citizens
[10:26] Jon Seattle: if we want, later on
[10:26] Moon Adamant: kk
[10:26] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we could have "affiliate parties" for other government-type sims, but later on, yes
[10:26] Pelanor Eldrich: Can I ask a stupid question. What stops a citizen from joining multiple factions?
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: expulsion/approval is tricky
[10:26] Moon Adamant: we must also make provision for local branches in future confed
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: we don't want to give power ot a leader to do this on a whim
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pelanor: the Constitution
[10:27] Moon Adamant: yes Pat!
[10:27] Jon Seattle nods to Moon
[10:27] Pelanor Eldrich: Remember, I'm king of the loophole, that's how I got in.
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and following that, it's the job of the SC to ensure the Constitution is being followed...
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and LOL Pel
[10:27] Moon Adamant: so i think voting down by simple majority for approval/expulsion is good
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok
[10:27] Jon Seattle: Ok
[10:28] Moon Adamant: we can also expand these procedures later on in thread
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Simple majority for electing the leader? And what fancy title should he/she have?
[10:28] Moon Adamant: Secretary-General
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: when does that procedure begin? from now? so all new members are on probation until we approve them?
[10:28] Jon Seattle smiles
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How often to elect him/her? Once per RA term? (ie. 6 months)
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: Dear Leader?
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say yes, Patroklus
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOl pat!!!!
[10:29] Moon Adamant: my proposal, since it hmmm suggests that the Leader is in service of teh party
[10:29] Moon Adamant: and LOL pat
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hope you realize who that avatar's alt is
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: Beloved Leader?
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Dear Leader = Prokofy Neva's alt.
[10:29] Jon Seattle: I think I feel confortable with Moon's suggestion.
[10:29] Patroklus Murakami: hehe! priceless
[10:29] Moon Adamant: Gwyn: i think 6 months is a bit too close
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Once per year?
[10:29] Moon Adamant: i'd say once a year
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I'm fine with that for starters.
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Next, election programme...
[10:30] Jon Seattle: Okay
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: a year seemms too long to me
[10:30] Jon Seattle: I would be fine with 6 months.
[10:30] Patroklus Murakami: it's a v long time in sl terms
[10:30] Jon Seattle: Things change quickly here.
[10:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, let's try one year... and assume that teh Assembly of party members is sovereign and can change the term
[10:30] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[10:31] Moon Adamant: this is not a strong point for me
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: ok if the party can remove a leader when they wnt to
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Neither for me.
[10:31] Moon Adamant: so if you guys think it should be 6 months is ok
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, the party should be able to do that, BUT...
[10:31] Patroklus Murakami: i'd be happier with 6 months
[10:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... we
