What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Here you might discuss basically everything.

Moderator: SC Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Location: Funadama (SL),Alaska (RL)
Contact:

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Han Held » Thu Apr 11, 2019 3:32 pm

I agree with Kyoko, Sudane and Sylvia -this sounds like a measure that is going to have more negative consequences than positive effects.

I don't understand what the exact, the specific problem is that this is intended to solve.

Do we have rotating red FOR SALE signs up in Alpine Meadows? Has someone set up a telehub trap in Monastery that has escaped my notice? Have strip malls sprung up in Friedsee?

What is the problem we're trying to solve?
What is the motive for trying to solve it now?
What's the rush?

In addition to "let's not complicate things" I'd also throw out the pithy (but appropriate!) "if it ain't broke, don't fix it"

Regards,
Han Held
Current steward of the Gasthaus in Monastery
"We don’t do this "thing" ’cause it’s permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we’re compelled." -Rorsach, "The Watchmen"

User avatar
Lilith Ivory
Pundit
Pundit
Posts: 352
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2007 1:43 pm
Location: Germany
Contact:

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Lilith Ivory » Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:08 pm

I have been in several "Covenant Commissions" over the years and whenever we talked about commercial/residental zoning we had buildings in mind where citizens tried to make money by selling items. That's why we were talking about "vendors must be inside" and "no big full bright rotating ad signs"
At this time we had a few citizens in CDS who actually tried to earn L$ by selling items in CDS. Textures, Buildings and … coughs … Togas come in mind. I doubt those merchants were able to even cover their tier with their sales back then. And as the SL economy became more tough over time it´s even less likely now a merchant would pick CDS as mainstore location. Most successful stores are big and open and of course we don´t want that in our residential areas - or anywhere else in CDS. Don´t we?

On the other hand we have to keep in mind that rural areas historically are commercial in RL
Farns, vineyards, mills and Tor's winery would need to get a variance too. If we follow the "if it looks commercial it is commercial" rule one would be commercial as soon as one has some cows, sheep or goats out :)

As a sideline: It turns my stomach to see what happens in the RL Alps and many small idyllic villages in Bavaria. Traditional farms and farmland gets sold and turned into weekend homes for the rich. I really don´t want to think about CDS as a place like this.

So pretty please let´s not make our SL and selling land in CDS more difficult as it is already.

In my opinion we should:
  • define commercial as "really trying to sell something"
  • change most covenants so both commercial and residential are allowed. With exceptions for downtown NFS and CN where the 1th floor has to be commercial or looking like being commercial and perhaps Monastery and Friedsee as to my knowing LL does not allow real commerce on a homestead.
I really don´t see why a citizen should not be allowed to put some vendors inside of a house that looks good and is build in alliance with our covenants.

Instead of restricting ourselves with zoning we should have another look at the high limits of buildings.
While we have/had several buildings in CDS which look perfectly fine being partly 20m high, this high limit also allows 4 floor high monstrosities and if it is a villa, apartment building or an alpine castle we would have a very hard time to disallow it.
"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Sylvia Tamalyn
Pundit
Pundit
Posts: 354
Joined: Sat Dec 31, 2016 8:07 am
Location: NFS, SLT +2
Contact:

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Sylvia Tamalyn » Thu Apr 11, 2019 7:46 pm

Lilith Ivory wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 6:08 pm

So pretty please let´s not make our SL and selling land in CDS more difficult as it is already.

In my opinion we should:
  • define commercial as "really trying to sell something"
  • change most covenants so both commercial and residential are allowed. With exceptions for downtown NFS and CN where the 1th floor has to be commercial or looking like being commercial and perhaps Monastery and Friedsee as to my knowing LL does not allow real commerce on a homestead.
I really don´t see why a citizen should not be allowed to put some vendors inside of a house that looks good and is build in alliance with our covenants.
A practical solution that gives more freedom instead of taking it away. I like it. :)
Live every day like it's Taco Tuesday!

MadmaxSoulLover
Lurker
Lurker
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 4:15 pm

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by MadmaxSoulLover » Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:00 am

Ok so just my thought and opinion, But what if defining commercial is defined as a location selling a product for purpose of making a profit and being limited to area's that are already defined as commercial, Now as for all that has been listed as having variances, By my thoughts anyways all sound more like a common or social area of some kind, So why not add in a law or something to allow for a social type place to be allowed within each of the area's of CDS within reason of location, theme and any other factors that would determine if it fits within the area it is potentially being looked at being located? That is my thoughts anyways.

Em Warden
Seasoned debater
Seasoned debater
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 5:05 pm

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Em Warden » Mon Apr 15, 2019 4:01 am

My only concern in this discussion is that we find a way to allow the places Sudane mentioned (like her taverna in Monastery) that looks commercial but actually only offers a nice "commercial look-alike" surrounding to enjoy.

I have had several "fake businesses" during the years without any objections from the LUC, nor from any Chancellor, and was never granted any "variance".

I seem to be the only one who interpreted things differently in the latest RA meeting. I really thought we were trying to soften and extend the concept of commercial to include, and thereby admit, the places that only look commercial- because we want them.

But I am much inclined to change the covenants to allow a mix of residential and commercial in all the sims. We often see small business deep in the RL countryside that try their luck...
When you go through hell- keep walking!

Winston Churchill

User avatar
Kyoko
Casual contributor
Casual contributor
Posts: 44
Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2018 7:23 pm

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Kyoko » Mon Apr 15, 2019 5:51 am

Em Warden
I seem to be the only one who interpreted things differently in the latest RA meeting. I really thought we were trying to soften and extend the concept of commercial to include, and thereby admit, the places that only look commercial- because we want them.

But I am much inclined to change the covenants to allow a mix of residential and commercial in all the sims. We often see small business deep in the RL countryside that try their luck...
For purposes of selling land and not complicating what a new citizen has to consider, I agree with Em's view of softening.
And I agree that "businesses" of exactly the type we have already are present in the our countryside. (I haven't done a full inspection, but everything that has been named as potentially problematic are, indeed, the social spaces that MadMaxSoulLover has mentioned.)

A number of proposals have been put forward, but I will drag out my view again. I honestly think the urban/countryside distinction is a good route to go. Perhaps saying that commercial, or places that "look" commercial are allowed IF they are appropriate to their setting, urban or countryside. The covenants will take care of a lot of the "appropriateness" issue, thus limiting the amount of revision required re: commercial.
C.D.S. Chancellor for the 30th Term

User avatar
Rosie Gray
Forum Wizard
Forum Wizard
Posts: 1680
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 9:47 am
Location: west-coast Canada

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Rosie Gray » Mon Apr 15, 2019 10:27 am

Right, you have won me over. Urban vs. rural, instead of residential vs. commercial. I'm glad we had this discussion so that we can all be on the same page.

Cathy Sabre
Lurker
Lurker
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Cathy Sabre » Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:45 pm

Cathy's dollar and thirty three cents.

I have been most impressed with the CDS's use of the word "plausible." There is something to be said for a SLife which provides the mechanisms for a psychedelic environment, but that is the antithesis of the CDS philosophy. So, I am comfortable in these estates as a "human" style avatar in a humane environment.

But, many of us want to do more then have a nest into which we can invite a few friends. I know, for instance, that Widget ran into problems with her conferences and whether or not they were "commercial." Of course they weren't residential, but she could certainly argue that they weren't commercial. In RL we have an additional zone, industrial, but they are less appropriate for churches, playgrounds, youth centers and what ever else you could think of that wasn't a house, store, or factory: Railroad station? fishing pier?(what if you sold worms? Or, .....?

I think that appropriate and plausible work, but am not sure how you legislate something so subjective. If we want to ask that the visuals of some construction "fit" with the decor of a neighborhood, how do we determine what "fit," appropriate, and plausible are? Perhaps Kyoko's urban/rural definitions give the best solution. We need some zoning laws so citizens, or prospective citizens can have an adequate idea, in advance, about what can be, or can't be, done. But, it doesn't make sense to ink the LUC into a corner.

User avatar
Han Held
I need a hobby
I need a hobby
Posts: 618
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2015 3:52 pm
Location: Funadama (SL),Alaska (RL)
Contact:

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Han Held » Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:29 pm

Cathy Sabre wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:45 pm
I think that appropriate and plausible work, but am not sure how you legislate something so subjective.
Welcome to the CDS (forum) 8)

I think the big, big thing to look at would be impact -although we don't have much of a problem with that.

You can have a club on a residential parcel that draws in a lot of people and lag -say, for instance, a lodge style build. It would look just like a residence; but have the drawbacks (crowding, lag) of a commercial build.

I don't like this whole cut-in-stone black-and-white thing; I think it ought to be dealt with
on a case by case basis
as the need arises
with an eye more towards resource usage than on appearances.

We're a group of 64 people -20, 25 really (if you consider the folks that are active and involved) ...in many ways the governmental red tape is overkill for the number of folks we're dealing with.

And this is a great example of that -on top of policing theme (which I agree with and applaud) we're talking about policing usage too.

I say that until parcels are using up resources (causing lag etc) let it lie -and once they are, police that, not wether it's commercial or residential, urban or rural.

I remember 2005 and the horrible eye-sores of malls that would lag you out, I always felt like the covenant (with the residential/commercial zoning divides) was written at least in part as a reaction to that (as well, of course, as being a part of a model virtual government).

I don't feel that's what ought to be the primary consideration -excessive usage ought to be. (detirmining what that means and how to enforce that will give us more than enough work anyway!)
"We don’t do this "thing" ’cause it’s permitted. We do it because we have to. We do it because we’re compelled." -Rorsach, "The Watchmen"

Cathy Sabre
Lurker
Lurker
Posts: 2
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:57 pm

Re: What is "Commercial" for Zoning Purposes?

Post by Cathy Sabre » Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:15 am

So here it is in my-two-cents.... well, three

1. If we could read each others minds or talk with everyone involved, then respect our findings: We wouldn't need laws.*

2. Since that is impossible, whatever statutes we create -- in an attempt to limit bloody noses -- should codify what people want to do, not what politicians want them to do.

3. (To paraphrase my CDS mentors) Excessive statutes bring diminishing returns, while the ones we need to have should be: Obvious; Useful; Easy/fun to follow, and enforced, if not.

* In an attempt to solve that deficit (and on-topic), we make zoning regulations, to balance the right of a particular citizen to build what she wants, with the right of all citizens to live in as gorgeous an environment as possible.

Post Reply

Return to “General Discussion”