Commission Transcript 25 October 2014

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Patroklus Murakami
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Commission Transcript 25 October 2014

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

Rosie Gray
PM
okay, I call the meeting to order at 7:55 am

Rosie Gray
3:56 PM
we are here to review the CDS RA New Sim Commission Report, make any changes we agree on, in order to take the report to the RA
so who wants to start?
first though... sorry

Patroklus
3:56 PM
shall we take it section by section?

Leslie
3:56 PM
question on first point?

Rosie Gray
3:57 PM
I just want to say that everything here that I put in is a direct quote from motions made during our meetings
yes, let's start with a.

Patroklus
3:57 PM
i agree with section a 

Rosie Gray
3:57 PM
comments?

Gaius
3:57 PM
None here.

Leslie
3:57 PM
There is no reason not to fill out the CDS region with a 6th sim. Everyone agrees with that, however a further sim should be considered along with an update to the general plan, especially since NFS East wasn't part of the public conversation, My question is if we purchase 2 sims now, and it takes the "usual" amount of time to execute a plan, will we be paying tier for the second sim?

Rosie Gray
3:57 PM
hmmm
disagree with you Leslie

Gaius
3:58 PM
We will not be purchasing NFS E "now", however, Leslie.

Rosie Gray
3:58 PM
NFS East was a part of the public survey, and discussion

Leslie
3:58 PM
I understand that

Gaius
3:58 PM
Indeed.

Patroklus
3:58 PM
maybe 'put funds aside to purchase' instead of 'purchase'

Rosie Gray
3:58 PM
please see b.

Widget
3:58 PM
agrees with Pat

Patroklus
3:58 PM
so it's clear we are not saying 'buy it now and build it later'

Leslie
3:58 PM
a says purchase 2 regions

Gaius
3:59 PM
Yes, but there's an addendum in b, Leslie.

Rosie Gray
3:59 PM
I'd agree with that wording, Pat

Gaius
3:59 PM
Regardless, I believe Pat is right.

Leslie
3:59 PM
B does not amend a

Gaius
4:00 PM
But it adds to A.

Rosie Gray
4:00 PM
how is that now?

Leslie
4:00 PM
Moot now

Rosie Gray
4:00 PM
the rewording

Patroklus
4:00 PM
ok

Leslie
4:00 PM
good

Gaius
4:00 PM
Hm...
No, now I disagree.
Purchase one sim and put funds aside for NFS E.

Rosie Gray
4:00 PM
amended it to say 2 full regions

Leslie
4:01 PM
I agree Gaius

Gaius
4:01 PM
Otherwise, we mught be putting funds aside for a while until the RA authorises the purchase!

Leslie
4:01 PM
But we won't want to purchase until the plan is ready

Rosie Gray
4:01 PM
I agree we won't

Gaius
4:01 PM
Add that, then.

Leslie
4:02 PM
Or we are paying tier, while we work through a process that is obviously extended

Patroklus
4:02 PM
we don't a have a sim plan yet. we can't buy it until we have the plan ready or we'll be burning tier until we have one

Gaius
4:02 PM
"Purchase a sim west of NFS when the plan is ready and approved, and put funds aside in preparation for a sim east of NFS."

Leslie
4:02 PM
ty Pat
nods to Gaius

Patroklus
4:02 PM
happy with gains amends
gaius. damn autocorrect

Rosie Gray
4:02 PM
so, should it say "Put aside funds to purchase 2 full regions, searching for best deals on used regions, and to be actually purchased when plans are ready to being construction."

Leslie
4:03 PM
agree, Rosie

Gaius
4:03 PM
Alright, that looks good

Patroklus
4:03 PM
i think that works too rosie

Widget
4:03 PM
Sims to be purchased when plans are ready to being construction."

Rosie Gray
4:03 PM
begin* (not being)

Gaius
4:03 PM


Widget
4:03 PM
begin


Rosie Gray
4:03 PM
all agreed?

Gaius
4:04 PM
Aye

Leslie
4:04 PM
aye

Widget
4:04 PM
Simple sentences are harder to misconstrue.

Rosie Gray
4:04 PM
indeed

Patroklus
4:04 PM
agreed

Rosie Gray
4:04 PM
are you agree, Widget?

Widget
4:05 PM
Sims to be purchased when plans are ready to begin construction.

Rosie Gray
4:05 PM
okay

Gaius
4:05 PM
Hm...

Rosie Gray
4:05 PM
so now, 'b'

Widget
4:06 PM
wai
shouldnt we be consistent in using 'regions' as opposed to 'sims'?

Gaius
4:06 PM
I've suggested an edit.

Patroklus
4:06 PM
yes. let's try to be consistent

Rosie Gray
4:06 PM
yes I guess so re Regions

Widget
4:06 PM
y

Rosie Gray
4:06 PM
Gaius, it already says 2 full regions in the first sentence

Widget
4:06 PM
ty

Patroklus
4:07 PM
"each region to be purchased"?

Widget
4:07 PM
better, Rosie

Gaius
4:07 PM
Good, good.
Now to B!

Rosie Gray
4:07 PM
all good?

Patroklus
4:07 PM
yes

Gaius
4:07 PM
Yup!

Leslie
4:08 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
4:08 PM
okay.. on to 'b'

Widget
4:08 PM
Placement of region should be separate from timing

Leslie
4:09 PM
I agree that reality demands flexibility and caution.

Patroklus
4:09 PM
does 'b' mean we do NFS W first and then NFS E? it's a bit ambiguous as drafted

Leslie
4:09 PM
I have comment on b

Rosie Gray
4:09 PM
let's hear your comment, Leslie

Leslie
4:10 PM
As a public servant it is difficult to balance what one wants, what the public wants, what is good for the public and what will actually work. I would like to see NFS East, personally, however I am not sure the the other three apply.
I will support it, but would like to do it carefully

Rosie Gray
4:10 PM
in the survey, NFS E was the favoured choice
and that was a survey that 50 citizens participated in

Gaius
4:10 PM
I believe that most of our attention was placed on NFS W, primarily because that is the natural place that many of us wish to see the rectangle complete.

Leslie
4:10 PM
not in the discussions

Rosie Gray
4:11 PM
but the survey it was, and that involved more people

Leslie
4:11 PM
A survey is full of leading questions

Rosie Gray
4:11 PM
I disagree, I think they were neutral

Gaius
4:11 PM
I believe the timing in the document is indeed ambiguous, but I believe that NFS W should be dealt with first.

Patroklus
4:11 PM
i think that provided we do one quickly after the other, we are fine whichever order we go in

Gaius
4:11 PM
Indeed, Pat.

Rosie Gray
4:12 PM
I think that NFS W would be easier to do than NFS E
and should be the first one to do

Leslie
4:12 PM
I agree

Patroklus
4:12 PM
i would prefer NFS E first cos it's more parcels and therefore more citizens. NFS W is probably lower risk as there are fewer parcels to sell

Widget
4:12 PM
I wouldn't weight the survey over the discussions or weight either over the combined perspectives of the Commission.

Leslie
4:12 PM
Not necessarilly
necessarily

Rosie Gray
4:13 PM
I'm not sure Pat, if they are both full regions, then they will both require at least the number of parcels to support the tier

Patroklus
4:13 PM
NFS dense inner city and rural are always sold out though to i think both are pretty low risk

Rosie Gray
4:13 PM
and everyone seems to want the 'gap' to be filled first

Gaius
4:13 PM
Indeed, Rose.
Rosie, rather!

Widget
4:13 PM
comment

Leslie
4:13 PM
I have a plan for NFS west that will provide both

Rosie Gray
4:14 PM
we aren't discussing the plans at this point though

Widget
4:14 PM
the way the conversations were structured, we did not ask people about the desirability of coastal parcels

Gaius
4:14 PM
Do you mean timeline, Leslie?

Widget
4:14 PM
filling in the 'gap' reduces the shoreline

Rosie Gray
4:14 PM
there's no real shoreline up there at all, Widget

Leslie
4:15 PM
not necessariy

Rosie Gray
4:15 PM
the sims are too high for that

Leslie
4:15 PM
You are not considering an alternative way of filling in the gap

Widget
4:15 PM
could there be more shoreline?

Leslie
4:15 PM
yes

Gaius
4:15 PM
One day.

Rosie Gray
4:15 PM
only if you dropped the sims down almost vertically

Widget
4:15 PM
How could there be more shoreline?

Rosie Gray
4:15 PM
NFS and Monastery are up very high

Gaius
4:15 PM
I believe some plans for NFS W do indeed include a lake, however, Widget.

Leslie
4:15 PM
Do your remember my model Rosie?

Rosie Gray
4:15 PM
yes Leslie

Patroklus
4:16 PM
well, are we going with the GMP or not? NFS W is a mountain sim according to that

Gaius
4:16 PM
But... let's NOT focus on making plans just yet.

Rosie Gray
4:16 PM
but that would mean moving and rotating Monastery
I agree with Pat

Leslie
4:16 PM
Yes so?

Rosie Gray
4:16 PM
right now the GMP requires mountain sims

Leslie
4:17 PM
It is a mountain

Gaius
4:17 PM
Can we be more germane to the placement of the regions, instead of their plans?

Patroklus
4:17 PM
leslie, is your objection to theme? if so, that should come when we discuss item c

Rosie Gray
4:17 PM
I agree with Gaius, we should not be discussing plans right now
this is about placement of the sims

Patroklus
4:17 PM
i think the consensus is around placement to E and W of NFS
which is the bit we are trying to get right now

Gaius
4:17 PM
Now, are we agreed with the timeline in B?

Leslie
4:18 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
4:18 PM
I agree with that

Patroklus
4:18 PM
i think we should specify that the second region comes in this term or the next one
it should not drag on for two years!

Leslie
4:18 PM
this term ends when?

Patroklus
4:18 PM
new RA comes in 1 Dec

Widget
4:19 PM
Nov 22nd we install a new RA
oh

Gaius
4:19 PM
"in the year 2015"?

Leslie
4:19 PM
So both regions in one month?

Widget
4:19 PM
two regions in one month is a terrible idea

Patroklus
4:19 PM
no both by the middle of 2015

Rosie Gray
4:19 PM
that isn't what it says

Patroklus
4:19 PM
one this term hopefully. and one next term

Gaius
4:20 PM
Let's recommend the purchase of NFS E in 2015.

Rosie Gray
4:20 PM
referring back to a., to be purchased when plans are ready to begin construction

Gaius
4:20 PM
Indeed.

Rosie Gray
4:20 PM
so we should recommend NFS W first

Patroklus
4:20 PM
i agree with gaius. we need to specify a time or the recommendation loses empahsiis

Leslie
4:20 PM
Yes

Rosie Gray
4:21 PM
I agree also

Gaius
4:21 PM
Yes, I believe we all agree NFS W is our first priority, as NFS E might be more complicated.

Rosie Gray
4:21 PM
right

Gaius
4:21 PM
(but likewise more interesting as a sim!)

Leslie
4:21 PM
Or sims

Rosie Gray
4:22 PM
1 region to be placed west of NFS first, and the other to be placed east of NFS and to placed when the RA approves the purchase.

Gaius
4:22 PM
"...the purchase in 2015."
?

Patroklus
4:23 PM
"both to be in place before the end of May 2015" or something like that
ok with gaius wording

Rosie Gray
4:23 PM
okay now?

Patroklus
4:23 PM
brb. need tea!

Gaius
4:25 PM
Yes, agreed.
To get the ball moving, as well, I agree with C and the analysis there.

Rosie Gray
4:25 PM
are we all agreed on b now?

Leslie
4:25 PM
yes

Gaius
4:26 PM
Yes.

Rosie Gray
4:26 PM
Widget?

Widget
4:27 PM
thinking
it is my opinion that we need to balance the survey results with the discussion results with the accumulated thinking of this Commission

Rosie Gray
4:28 PM
hmmm, it might be construed that we are saying to purchase both in 2015 with this wording

Widget
4:28 PM
when I designed the survey, upon which the discussions were loosley designed, I had no idea about the possible themes

Rosie Gray
4:28 PM
I think we are doing that, Widget

Widget
4:28 PM
ie, we narrowed the choices from the beginning
I regret that now and the process that flowed from it
done

Rosie Gray
4:29 PM
Widget, we are also basing it on the GMP

Leslie
4:29 PM
which is up to date?

Rosie Gray
4:29 PM
which we are obliged to follow
it's from 2008, so absolutely does need to be updated
but right now, that is the GMP

Gaius
4:29 PM
I would rather a term worth of work of this commission not unravel now — think of the power that would have with people like CLEO, as she speaks from self-imposed exile.

Patroklus
4:29 PM
back somewhere need to say that the RA should start the ball rolling on the first sim 'immediately' so there's no reason for a delayed start

Leslie
4:30 PM
I think this is a cart before a horse

Rosie Gray
4:30 PM
I agree with Gaius' comment

Widget
4:30 PM
Can this commission recommend updating the GMP
seems to me it should

Rosie Gray
4:30 PM
it's already recommended for the other commission to do that, Widget

Gaius
4:30 PM
It can, but then that is not consistent with the discussions we have had with citizens.

Rosie Gray
4:30 PM
I agree we shouldn't be stepping backwards

Gaius
4:31 PM
I believe that we all (or a majority of us) agree with the wording of B.

Patroklus
4:31 PM
i'm fine with b

Widget
4:31 PM
when** the RA approves the purchase in 2015

Rosie Gray
4:32 PM
that's the line I'm looking at too

Widget
4:32 PM
Shouldn't that be when the RA approves the purchase?

Rosie Gray
4:32 PM
it seems to apply to both sims, but we don't mean that

Leslie
4:32 PM
agreed

Rosie Gray
4:33 PM
Pat's edit makes sense to me

Patroklus
4:33 PM
W first, then E in 2015

Gaius
4:33 PM
Yes.

Rosie Gray
4:33 PM
yes

Gaius
4:33 PM
I believe we are all agreed...?

Patroklus
4:34 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
4:34 PM
Leslie and Widget?

Leslie
4:34 PM
okay

Widget
4:34 PM
I'm advisory.... but I think it's the best we can do

Rosie Gray
4:35 PM
okay, good... now c

Widget
4:36 PM
given the assumptions here
What does this mean? >> Alpine Medieval themed sim set in modern times.
Rennaisance Faire?

Gaius
4:36 PM
I believe that means it will be the same theme as NFS is.
Indeed, it does mean that — that is the wording for NFS's theme.

Rosie Gray
4:36 PM
yes, that is what was voted on

Patroklus
4:36 PM
doesn't the GMP determine the theme? it says 'mitteleuropa' for that region. does this match that?

Gaius
4:37 PM
Indeed, Rosie.
Middle Europe does mean Alpine, yes, Pat.

Rosie Gray
4:37 PM
I think it does, although middle Europe is somewhat vague

Patroklus
4:37 PM
The NFS covenant says "The city of Neufreistadt is modeled after a medieval Bavarian city with a surrounding valley. The time period is indeterminate. 
"

Gaius
4:38 PM
Yes, because "Middle Europe" could also be parts of many other countries.

Rosie Gray
4:38 PM
right

Gaius
4:39 PM
I believe the "modern times" means that the time period is synonymous with an indeterminate time period, so long as it remains rural and Alpine/Medieval.

Patroklus
4:39 PM
"Alpine" is the theme for AM, Monastery and sims to the E and W of it according to the GMP

Gaius
4:39 PM
We can't necessarily change this point now, either: as Rosie pointed out, it was voted on during a meeting.

Rosie Gray
4:39 PM
right

Patroklus
4:39 PM
my point is that it's inconsistent with the GMP

Rosie Gray
4:40 PM
how is it inconsistent, Pat?

Widget
4:40 PM
Voted on during a Commission meeting or a RA?

Rosie Gray
4:40 PM
Commission meeting

Gaius
4:40 PM
Commission meeting.

Patroklus
4:40 PM
the GMP draws a distinction between 'alpine' and 'mitteleuropa' so they must have had different themes in mind

Widget
4:40 PM
Commissions are advisory to the RA ... paying attention to Pat's point

Gaius
4:41 PM
That may be, Pat, but (1) Middle Europe is a broader distinction than Alpine, and (2) the GMP does not adequately define the term "mitteleuropa".

Widget
4:41 PM
Pointing to another reason to update the GMP

Gaius
4:42 PM
Aye, Widget, but not within the prerogative of our commission

Widget
4:42 PM
which, imo, is not at all a bad thing

Patroklus
4:42 PM
well the GMP needs work in any case. monastery does not fit with it (it's supposed to be a void sim) and NFS E and W are both supposed to be high density builds according to it....

Rosie Gray
4:42 PM
absolutely agreed that the GMP needs to be updated, but it's not our mandate

Gaius
4:43 PM
No, no, I completely agree: the GMP is out of date.
But we need to focus... we are an hour and 12 minutes into our meeting and we're working on the wording of the report, not deciding on the course of our (now completed) commission.

Rosie Gray
4:43 PM
so, getting back to the recommendations
yes, I agree with Gaius
these were all debated on in previous meetings, and voted on

Widget
4:44 PM
Thinking of the next 10 years of CDS, can we take a few minutes to consider what should come before issuing an RFP for sim design?

Rosie Gray
4:44 PM
I think we are doing that Widget

Widget
4:44 PM
ok

Rosie Gray
4:45 PM
don't forget that for years now a lot of citizens have been looking forward to these sims... we need to get on with them

Patroklus
4:45 PM
i'm fine with the rest of c. i just want to make sure that 'establish an outpost on another grid' is considered at the same time even if it's not a proposal from this commission

Gaius
4:46 PM
I think the remainder of C seems to be the analysis of the surveys and discussions.
I think it's already discussed enough, Pat.

Rosie Gray
4:46 PM
do you want to propose some wording for that at the bottom of the document, Pat?

Leslie
4:46 PM
I think the new commission will consider that Pat, with out this commissions nudge

Patroklus
4:46 PM
that's okay rosie. i'll suggest something separately

Rosie Gray
4:46 PM
okay

Leslie
4:47 PM
LUC has that build it
built

Rosie Gray
4:47 PM
okay good
so are we ready to leave 'c'?

Leslie
4:47 PM
aye

Gaius
4:47 PM
Yes!

Patroklus
4:47 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
4:48 PM
Widget?

Widget
4:49 PM
sorry yes

Rosie Gray
4:50 PM
thanks 
okay now for d.
any issues with it?

Leslie
4:50 PM
no

Widget
4:51 PM
one thought

Patroklus
4:51 PM
'call for design proposals' is pretty open. you could get anything back. should we recommend the RA be more specific about public v. private, any special builds, single or double prim and so on? give people some parameters to work within?

Leslie
4:51 PM
that would be difficult to formulate not, Pat.
now

Rosie Gray
4:51 PM
I agree with Leslie

Leslie
4:52 PM
I would hope the LUC could do that.

Rosie Gray
4:52 PM
this is more of a frame for the Land Use Commission to get going with

Patroklus
4:52 PM
not for us to formulate leslie. i mean that the RA should do so before calling for proposals

Rosie Gray
4:52 PM
but any design proposals will need to follow these recommendations as to placement and theme

Widget
4:54 PM
in addition to survey and meetings, there has been some useful forum discussion about design... including one begun earlier today by EM Warden. Forums are a legitimate part of CDS public life, I'd make room for them in our language

Rosie Gray
4:55 PM
Widget, people have been bringing forward different ideas constantly on every aspect of new sims, then changing minds etc. for years. It changes with the seasons and with the players
I think we need to focus or it will never be accomplished

Widget
4:56 PM
Rosie, that's not a reason to ignore the forums
I'm not suggesting forum threads should drive our thinking
only that we include them in our understanding of public comment on public concerns

Rosie Gray
4:56 PM
we have moved past the point of public discussion on themes, but any design proposals would have to be brought to the complete community again

Widget
4:56 PM
you misread me

Rosie Gray
4:56 PM
by the Land Use Commission

Widget
4:56 PM
ok, passing on this

Rosie Gray
4:57 PM
did I?
sorry if I did

Widget
4:57 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
4:57 PM
please explain further

Widget
4:57 PM
I'm merely suggesting that we include comments made in forums as part of what a design proposal might take into account

Leslie
4:58 PM
Could we say that public comments include forum?
Or is that implicit?

Widget
4:58 PM
I'd like to, Les ... they don't have force of law and it's not implicit

Patroklus
4:58 PM
we need to avoid the mistakes of the LA redo though

Rosie Gray
4:58 PM
I thought we were referencing back to the work this commission has done

Leslie
4:59 PM
IMHO, the most important thing is appointing good drivers to the LUC, the best vehicle will be wrecked by bad drivers

Patroklus
4:59 PM
we have settled on a theme (i think). some people want to argue for something else - steampunk or French rural. if we go backwards we will never get a new region added!

Rosie Gray
4:59 PM
but I would expect that when the Land Use Commission calls for design proposals, that there would be more discussion again on those

Widget
4:59 PM
ok... there's much I don't know about all this
I'll watch and learn

Patroklus
5:01 PM
i think we need to pay attention to the forums and any other public input but, if someone comes along and says "why don't we build a region next to CN where Dougga was going to be" i think we need to say "no, we have had that discussion and we are moving on"

Widget
5:01 PM
nods

Rosie Gray
5:01 PM
I agree with Pat

Patroklus
5:01 PM
or it just goes round in circles endlessly

Rosie Gray
5:02 PM
it's one of the things I've witnessed constantly with the CDS... yes round and round
new people arrive, don't know what's already been agreed on or discussed, have different ideas... around we go one more time
and nothing gets done

Leslie
5:03 PM
So do we agree with d?

Widget
5:03 PM
ok

Patroklus
5:03 PM
i agree

Leslie
5:03 PM
I think it is a good balance between flexibility and commitment

Rosie Gray
5:03 PM
agreed

Widget
5:03 PM
remove my (Forums Discussion?) from text

Leslie
5:04 PM
either way

Rosie Gray
5:04 PM
I honestly think it just muddies the waters

Leslie
5:04 PM
I think forums is public and comment

Widget
5:04 PM
I do too

Rosie Gray
5:04 PM
yup

Leslie
5:05 PM
so it is implicit
if a bidder wants to use it, they can

Widget
5:05 PM
oh, ok

Leslie
5:05 PM
LUC will just have to decide.

Patroklus
5:05 PM
i think forums are public comment

Rosie Gray
5:05 PM
I do too

Widget
5:05 PM
ok, good
thank you

Rosie Gray
5:05 PM
so, we are all agreed?

Leslie
5:05 PM
I move we accept d

Gaius
5:05 PM
Yes

Widget
5:05 PM
agree

Rosie Gray
5:06 PM
then the second recommendation... request the newly established CDS Land-Use Commission to manage the creation of the new sims, as per their mandate.

Patroklus
5:06 PM
agree

Widget
5:06 PM
agree

Leslie
5:06 PM
agree

Gaius
5:06 PM
Agree.

Rosie Gray
5:06 PM
lovely!

Leslie
5:06 PM
yay

Rosie Gray
5:07 PM
I did not get to a draft legislation

Leslie
5:07 PM
Which would look how?

Rosie Gray
5:07 PM
let's skip that for a moment, and look at the finances

Patroklus
5:07 PM
ahem

Rosie Gray
5:07 PM
the last recommendation
yes Pat?

Leslie
5:08 PM
?
listens to Pat

Patroklus
5:08 PM
we could look at the 'In Theme Expansion' act as a legislative vehicle
http://portal.slcds.info/index.php/faqs ... nsion-act/

Rosie Gray
5:09 PM
well, we could... but it is outdated now
it references the New Guild

Widget
5:09 PM
NL 8-2 is on the Law Review docket for revision

Leslie
5:09 PM
I think we should avoid it, if possible

Patroklus
5:10 PM
if we don't use this law, how do we get the new sim developed?

Rosie Gray
5:10 PM
can we look at the last recommendation first to get through that, we could return to this

Patroklus
5:10 PM
if we don't use an existing law, are we going to make it up as we go along?

Rosie Gray
5:11 PM
brb

Leslie
5:11 PM
It says in addition to. what does that mean Pat?

Patroklus
5:11 PM
ok, happy to do finances first if you prefer

Widget
5:12 PM
Consider adoption of Trebor's analysis as primary guide?

Patroklus
5:13 PM
leslie, i'll reply to your point when get back to this item. okay?

Widget
5:13 PM
That should be above draft legislation anyhow

Rosie Gray
5:13 PM
well, I think we need to stick with 'adopt', rather than consider

Widget
5:13 PM
I mean consider now. discuss now

Rosie Gray
5:13 PM
oh

Widget
5:14 PM
sorry, incomplete sentence.

Rosie Gray
5:15 PM
okay... so this was a direct quote from what was voted on as a motion
but I agree the wording isn't great
does it need more explanation... as per your question on the document Widget?

Widget
5:16 PM
are we talking about 'adopt Trebor's analysis as the primary guide in determining the finances of a new sim. with some flexibility be allowed in consideration of public space useage
'?

Rosie Gray
5:16 PM
yes

Widget
5:17 PM
Not my wheelhouse, so no. I've no comment.

Rosie Gray
5:17 PM
we should include a link to it, at the very least

Gaius
5:17 PM
Same comment as Widget — not my specialty.

Rosie Gray
5:18 PM
let's find Trebor's document
on the forum somewhere

Patroklus
5:18 PM
i think it's fine. we just want the region to be financially viable but don't want trebor's calculations to only lead to once kind of region

Leslie
5:18 PM
I agree

Rosie Gray
5:19 PM
I'm looking for it

Leslie
5:19 PM
But it says guide, which is a model

Rosie Gray
5:19 PM
agreed

Leslie
5:19 PM
not the final documet

Rosie Gray
5:19 PM
Trebor is very good at this stuff 

Widget
5:19 PM
ok, Pat's comment makes sense to me

Leslie
5:20 PM
So again a balance of commitment with flexibility

Patroklus
5:20 PM
*one kind

Widget
5:20 PM
we want the region to be financially viable but don't want trebor's calculations to only lead to one kind of region

Rosie Gray
5:21 PM
viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5259
I agree with that Widget
his is an overview, in my opinion
but we need some flexibility
how do we word this?

Widget
5:24 PM
How about
Adopt Trebor's analysis as the primary guide in determining the finances of a new sim. Allow for flexibility in consideration of public space useage
or
Adopt Trebor's analysis as a primary guide in determining the finances of a new sim. Allow for flexibility in consideration of public space useage

Rosie Gray
5:24 PM
sounds good
and the link

Patroklus
5:24 PM
think i prefer 'the' 

Widget
5:24 PM
what is public space useage
why, Pat?

Rosie Gray
5:24 PM
anything that isn't private

Widget
5:24 PM
useage?

Rosie Gray
5:25 PM
could drop that word

Widget
5:25 PM
what is useage
Rosie Gray shrugs

Leslie
5:25 PM
agreed

Widget
5:25 PM
what do we mean to say?

Patroklus
5:25 PM
i think you can only have one 'primary' guide. it it's only 'a primary' guide, what would the other ones be?

Widget
5:25 PM
ok Pat, point taken

Rosie Gray
5:25 PM
you are right Pat!

Widget
5:26 PM
any new sim or just this one?

Rosie Gray
5:26 PM
either of the 2 sims

Leslie
5:26 PM
These two

Rosie Gray
5:26 PM
both of the sims
rather

Widget
5:26 PM
Adopt Trebor's analysis as the primary guide in determining the finances of these new regions. Allow for flexibility in consideration of public space.

Leslie
5:27 PM
Wishing good luck for LUC.
with allowance?

Rosie Gray
5:27 PM
so much will depend on the design proposals! but it allows for flexibility

Leslie
5:27 PM
Yes
I move to accept.

Widget
5:27 PM
I'm confused... what is meant by consideration of public space? How much in land, in prims, in design?

Rosie Gray
5:27 PM
yes

Gaius
5:28 PM
Yes, I believe according to Trebor's variables.

Leslie
5:28 PM
The analysis is all about that balance.

Widget
5:28 PM
Allocation of resources, look and feel?

Rosie Gray
5:28 PM
tier fees

Patroklus
5:28 PM
i think the issue is widget that tremor's calculation, used on its own, leads to a sim with pubilic/private balance like LA

Leslie
5:28 PM
No, the finances is about private tier paying for public prims

Rosie Gray
5:28 PM
yes, what Pat said

Leslie
5:29 PM
So it is asking that it not be mandated to be a certain percentage
but to use that balance as a guide

Patroklus
5:29 PM
if we want something with more public land, like NFS, you need to make the private parcels more expensive to pay for all the public land that's not being paid for by other means

Rosie Gray
5:29 PM
which doesn't allow for much in the way of public space other than roads

Widget
5:29 PM
I want this recommendation to be easy to understand by people who are not steeped in CDS lore
like me

Patroklus
5:29 PM
*trebor. damn autocorrect

Rosie Gray
5:30 PM
good comment, Widget
brb

Leslie
5:30 PM
So his analysis is adopted, but not necessarily his percentages?

Widget
5:31 PM
the language of this recommendation is too short-handy for my comfort

Leslie
5:31 PM
How would you change it in the next 5 minutes, Widget?

Patroklus
5:31 PM
yes leslie. the RA should be free to commission a region like NFS if they want to and if they think the parcels will sell at that rate

Leslie
5:32 PM
So how do we get past this, and adopt wording.

Patroklus
5:32 PM
i'm afraid the drafting fairy has deserted me... finding it difficult to think of a clearer way to write this

Widget
5:32 PM
i'm going to try

Leslie
5:33 PM
We want to follow trebor's format, but not necessarily his assumptions

Gaius
5:33 PM
Folks, I must be going.

Leslie
5:33 PM
Aww.

Gaius
5:33 PM
But I approve of the report.

Patroklus
5:33 PM
bye gaius   take care

Leslie
5:33 PM
What a guy
cu

Widget
5:34 PM
Leslie, say more about assumption

Rosie Gray
5:34 PM
back... by Gaius
Gaius left group chat.

Rosie Gray
5:34 PM
bye*

Widget
5:34 PM
Rosie I'm trying another version of this last recommendation

Rosie Gray
5:34 PM
yes!

Leslie
5:35 PM
He has provided a formula, inserted assumptions, or variables into itle i
into it

Rosie Gray
5:35 PM
and the variables can be adjusted to account for fewer private parcels to cover the tier

Leslie
5:35 PM
We want to use his formula, but insert our own varibes

Rosie Gray
5:35 PM
right!

Leslie
5:35 PM
exactly

Rosie Gray
5:35 PM
where necessary

Widget
5:35 PM
does this work?
recommendation: Adopt Trebor's general format and analysis as the primary guide in determining the finances of these new regions. Allow for flexibility regarding assumptions about variables and in consideration of public space vis allocation of resources. 
See: viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5259

Rosie Gray
5:36 PM
well, I understand it

Leslie
5:36 PM
I like that fine, widget

Rosie Gray
5:36 PM
Pat?

Widget
5:36 PM
Pat?

Leslie
5:36 PM
that is a good start, Rosie

Patroklus
5:36 PM
yes, i like that

Rosie Gray
5:36 PM
yay!

Widget
5:36 PM
yay!

Leslie
5:37 PM
I would like to adopt that and move on
tg for Widget

Patroklus
5:37 PM
ty widget

Rosie Gray
5:37 PM
looks good

Widget
5:37 PM
glad to help

Rosie Gray
5:37 PM
so.. back to the question of the legistlation

Patroklus
5:38 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
5:38 PM
legislation*

Widget
5:38 PM
is a bill called for?

Patroklus
5:38 PM
here the question is: what process do we use? rather than 'what legislation?'

Rosie Gray
5:38 PM
okay

Widget
5:38 PM
right

Rosie Gray
5:38 PM
Pat I think you are the expert on this

Leslie
5:38 PM
"The RA should consider redrafting Pat suggested:NL 8-2 to bring it up to date or launch a different process if it believes this will lead to a quicker and more satisfactory outcome"

Patroklus
5:38 PM
do we use something like NL 8-2 which needs amendment? or do we make up a new process? similar to a previous region expansion?

Leslie
5:38 PM
Sorry Pat, but there you have it

Patroklus
5:39 PM
probably not for us to decide but we should recommend the RA does something. it needs to make a choice.

Leslie
5:39 PM
I think this is beyond the purview of this commission, and we should send the question back to the RA

Patroklus
5:39 PM
"The RA should consider redrafting NL 8-2 to bring it up to date or launch a different process if it believes this will lead to a quicker and more satisfactory outcome"

Widget
5:39 PM
Law Review will be making a recommendation regarding NL 8-2 ... my guess is within 2 months

Leslie
5:40 PM
agreed
that is too long

Patroklus
5:40 PM
i don't think we should wait widget

Widget
5:40 PM
how soon do you need it?

Leslie
5:40 PM
move it faster Widget
by the new RA

Patroklus
5:40 PM
if the RA wants to use NL 8-2 then it should do so as a priortiy
Widget takes a deep breath

Patroklus
5:40 PM
the whole point of the law was to speed things up

Leslie
5:40 PM
Well, for the LUC, which should meet soon

Patroklus
5:40 PM
by having pre-agreed process

Leslie
5:41 PM
Do it tomorrow, Widget

Widget
5:41 PM
how soon do you need a revised NL 8-2?

Rosie Gray
5:41 PM
the whole reason for including something in this document is to hasten the process

Widget
5:41 PM
pffft

Patroklus
5:41 PM
for the other expansions we made it up as we went along and it took ages and was very very painful

Widget
5:41 PM
we have just just set up Law Review and brought people ito it

Leslie
5:41 PM
did Widget just stick her tongue out at me?

Rosie Gray
5:41 PM
hahhaha

Patroklus
5:41 PM
LOL! not sure what that was 

Rosie Gray
5:42 PM
my guess is a Law Review will move like a glacier
out of necessity

Leslie
5:42 PM
I could have said yesterday

Widget
5:42 PM
put money on that, Rosie?

Leslie
5:42 PM
How soon can you push it through, Widget.

Rosie Gray
5:42 PM
hahhaha, I never bet, Widget!

Widget
5:42 PM
I can talk with Delia tonight or tomorrow
marking it urgent now

Leslie
5:42 PM
It needs to get to RA before LUC can proceed

Rosie Gray
5:42 PM
if that law could be dealt with as a priority

Leslie
5:43 PM
absolutely

Widget
5:43 PM
When will LUC be populated?

Rosie Gray
5:43 PM
good question since nobody has officially been assigned the job of convening it

Leslie
5:44 PM
I have asked appropriate peeps to nominate, but I think Rosie can facilitate that
We need RA to approve nominations

Rosie Gray
5:44 PM
right
and the guild

Leslie
5:44 PM
Which they could do next meeting

Widget
5:44 PM
ok, so you work on the people and I'll work on NL 8-2

Leslie
5:44 PM
We need nominations from guild and RA

Rosie Gray
5:44 PM
next meeting is tomorrow to redo the last meeting

Leslie
5:44 PM
so?
lets get nominees

Rosie Gray
5:44 PM
just not sure we will get to it
the guild needs to meet

Leslie
5:45 PM
two from guild and two from RA
then by the following meeting/

Widget
5:45 PM
Has the guild reconstituted itself?

Leslie
5:45 PM
?

Rosie Gray
5:45 PM
we still have a guild Widget
the CDS Artisan Guild

Widget
5:45 PM
and what about executive paricipation in the LUC

Leslie
5:45 PM
So send two names to the RA
asap

Rosie Gray
5:46 PM
right... have to consult with the rest of the guild on that

Leslie
5:46 PM
let's fire up our LUC

Patroklus
5:46 PM
good point widget. i guess there will be no exec participation until a new chancellor is elected 

Rosie Gray
5:46 PM
and we have no 'executive' riht now!

Leslie
5:46 PM
we don't need it for a quorum
We can seat all but the admin chair

Rosie Gray
5:46 PM
I'll see if I can get the RA to agree on recommendations, via email, so we can get that part done
(hopefully) at the meeting tomorrow

Leslie
5:46 PM
sweet, ty Rosie

Rosie Gray
5:47 PM
I'll try anyway, and with the guild too
guild will be more difficult I think
because there are a lot more people

Leslie
5:47 PM
That is three, we only need four to convene.

Widget
5:47 PM
Les, with who as Chair?

Rosie Gray
5:48 PM
supposed to be decided upon by the members of the commission

Leslie
5:48 PM
The law says the commission will vote for a chair and vice

Widget
5:48 PM
nods

Rosie Gray
5:48 PM
so... for our purposes right now with this document

Leslie
5:48 PM
I think 5 good people will be able to figure it all out

Rosie Gray
5:48 PM
what do we want to say for 'e'?

Leslie
5:48 PM
I will, sigh, accept, if nominated

Patroklus
5:48 PM
do we have agreement on text for e? i propose: "The RA should consider redrafting NL 8-2 to bring it up to date or launch a different process if it believes this will lead to a quicker and more satisfactory outcome"

Leslie
5:49 PM
Yes

Rosie Gray
5:49 PM
yes

Leslie
5:49 PM
I am good with that

Widget
5:49 PM
no 'consider'
should either

Patroklus
5:49 PM
ok, 'should either redraft... or launch...."

Leslie
5:49 PM
Awesome

Widget
5:49 PM
Actually

Rosie Gray
5:50 PM
that's good widget

Widget
5:50 PM
I believe the RA will ask Law Review for an opinion

Leslie
5:50 PM
Can this be our land use commission?

Widget
5:50 PM
Law Review exists as a Citizen's Initiative

Rosie Gray
5:51 PM
yes I was surprised to see it (but glad)
and good choice of participants

Widget
5:51 PM
Commissions lapse and we needed to get going.

Rosie Gray
5:51 PM
absolutely

Patroklus
5:52 PM
are we pretty much done then?

Rosie Gray
5:52 PM
so we are done with this document and I can post it on the forum for public comment?

Widget
5:52 PM
wait

Leslie
5:52 PM
Yes

Widget
5:52 PM
I'd remove 'quicker'

Patroklus
5:52 PM
i think speed is a consideration widget

Leslie
5:52 PM
satisfactory includes quicker

Rosie Gray
5:52 PM
agreed

Leslie
5:53 PM
Hard to tell the RA to be quick, imho

Rosie Gray
5:54 PM
it is, lol

Leslie
5:54 PM
*heh

Patroklus
5:54 PM
you can tell them. whether they take notice though...

Leslie
5:54 PM
Wait. I have declared!

Widget
5:54 PM
yay!

Leslie
5:54 PM


Widget
5:54 PM
awww

Rosie Gray
5:55 PM
hahaha
okay... so all agreed that it's ready for public comments?

Widget
5:55 PM
Rosie, I believe the lege rec goes last

Rosie Gray
5:55 PM
I need to post it now

Leslie
5:55 PM
I so move

Patroklus
5:55 PM
agreed
rosie. do you want me to send you a transcript for posting in the forum?

Rosie Gray
5:55 PM
yes you're right...

Leslie
5:55 PM
remember, perfect is the enemy of good.

Patroklus
5:56 PM
or i can post it if you prefer

Widget
5:56 PM
I've change recommendations to singular

Rosie Gray
5:56 PM
okay I think we are done
let's vote, just for clarity

Widget
5:57 PM
good luck with the formatting

Rosie Gray
5:57 PM
to adopt this document and send it to RA
I moved to Chrome because Firefox was screwing up the formatting for me

Widget
5:57 PM
wait please
Les is editing

Rosie Gray
5:57 PM
hmmm... okay

Leslie
5:57 PM
Is that okay?

Rosie Gray
5:58 PM
now it is

Widget
5:58 PM
and IMO, 'in order to' is much better language than 'if it would'

Rosie Gray
5:58 PM
either way is fine IMO

Leslie
5:58 PM
it is not grammatical
but if you want, widget

Widget
5:58 PM
how about

Leslie
6:00 PM
In order to provide a satisfactory out come,....... etc
the RA should either a or b
exactly

Widget
6:00 PM
what goes in to < >?

Leslie
6:00 PM
nothing
it could be left out

Rosie Gray
6:00 PM
?

Leslie
6:01 PM
reccommend a or b

Rosie Gray
6:01 PM
oh I see where you are going with it

Patroklus
6:01 PM
"whichever will produce the most satisfactory outcome"

Leslie
6:02 PM
fine
or consider?
a new process
rather that devise

Widget
6:03 PM
We recommend the RA either revise NL 8-2 to bring it up to date or consider a new process, whichever will produce the most satisfactory process and outcome.

Leslie
6:03 PM
It could ask LUC to devise

Patroklus
6:03 PM
needs to be 'devise'. consider is too weak

Widget
6:03 PM
Law Review will be knocking on the door of LUC

Leslie
6:03 PM
fine, Pat. they could use the commission to recommend the device

Widget
6:04 PM
hah

Leslie
6:04 PM
good, let's wrap

Widget
6:04 PM
We recommend the RA either revise NL 8-2 to bring it up to date or devise a new process, whichever will produce the most satisfactory process and outcome.

Patroklus
6:05 PM
let's conclude our session

Rosie Gray
6:05 PM
whew... yes

Leslie
6:05 PM
Yes

Patroklus
6:05 PM
i move we adjourn

Rosie Gray
6:05 PM
all agreed to adjourn?

Leslie
6:05 PM
yes

Rosie Gray
6:05 PM
yes

Leslie
6:06 PM
we are adjorned

Rosie Gray
6:06 PM
okay we are adjourned
Honi soit qui mal y pense
Locked

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