CSDF Open Meeting on Constitution - Transcript

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CSDF Open Meeting on Constitution - Transcript

Post by Moon Adamant »

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[16:16] You: first of all, permission to transcript
[16:17] You: oh, and i can take the log now, lol
[16:17] Yogeswari Padar: yes
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn gives permission :)
[16:17] Yogeswari Padar: love the voice
[16:17] Yogeswari Padar: :)
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Excellent text-to-speech technology ;(
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[16:17] Jon Seattle: gives permission as well
[16:17] Cloud Shackle is online
[16:17] You: lol
[16:17] You: ok
[16:17] You: contitution
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[16:17] Torley Linden is online
[16:17] You: constitution*
[16:18] Jon Seattle: listens
[16:18] You: well, to open this issue for discussion
[16:18] You: i'd like tomake a few remarks
[16:19] You: first of all is that in my country the constitution is revised periodically
[16:19] You: reasoning being that the society which is ruled by the constitution is always changing
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[16:20] You: and that at no time can teh fundamental text fall out of date with those changes
[16:20] Yogeswari Padar: makes so much sense
[16:20] You: now, since joining the CSDF
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and SL changes *even faster* than RL...)
[16:20] You: i haverealized that a lot of people do think otherwise
[16:21] You: yes, gwyn, that too
[16:21] Jon Seattle: Gwyn, it sure does!
[16:21] You: they are constitution conservatives
[16:21] Charlotte Gillespie is offline
[16:21] Jon Seattle: I think most US people are constitution conservatives
[16:21] You: they believe that the fundamental text must be kept as untouched as possible
[16:22] You: and that actually a lot of stuff is passed into the legislation level
[16:22] Charlotte Gillespie is online
[16:23] You: this is a bit of a generalization, of course
[16:23] Sech Molinari is offline
[16:24] Yogeswari Padar: it's quite true, moon
[16:24] You: you can have a lot of care doing the periodic revsions to constitution
[16:24] You: and you can actually do a very important debate on society when it happens
[16:25] Yogeswari Padar: and when they want to revise the constitution - lately - it is to deny peoples' rights
[16:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is dangerous...
[16:25] You: and you can even, perhaps, come to the conclusion that teh consttution must be changed in only little things afetr all
[16:25] You: ah yes
[16:26] You: that's why the portuguese constitution, for example, refers itself to teh bill of human rights
[16:26] You: that way, you can never have LESS rights
[16:26] You: ok
[16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn apologies to interrupt — yesterday, an attempt was made to pass an "administrative ruling" that would relieve N'stadt citizens of one of their fundamental rights: the right to "one citizen, one vote", in secrecy, individually, and non-transferable
[16:26] You: but we are dealing here with our constitution at Stadt
[16:26] You: listens to gwyn
[16:26] Flyingroc Chung is online
[16:27] Yogeswari Padar: when did this happen? how?
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have that as one of our fundamental rights,
[16:27] Riffey4 DeGroot is offline
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but some people (our own Pat [he'll be reading this hehe]) are calling for the possibility of doing an "absentee vote
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now this seems to be mostly harmless,
[16:27] Flyingroc Chung: hidey ho
[16:28] Riffey4 DeGroot is online
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but in effect delegates the vote to someone else.
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hi FR :D
[16:28] You: yes, all rightful states, i believe, have that figure of absentee voting
[16:28] Jon Seattle: Hi FR!
[16:28] Yogeswari Padar: what kind of "absentee"?
[16:28] You: hiya FR :)
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sure — we don't — so a change is necessary, to either Constitution or legislation
[16:28] Yogeswari Padar: hi FR
[16:28] Yogeswari Padar: kind of ridiculous on the 'net, don't you think?
[16:28] Flyingroc Chung: gwyn I think patroklus is ok with me sending him his password, and he can vote on the web
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to make sure that the fundamental right is preserved...
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See what I mean, Yoge?
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, FR
[16:29] Flyingroc Chung: no?
[16:29] You: well, Yoge, here namely we have a few millions of people living outside portugal... they can't be expected to come and actually vote in teh national territoruy
[16:29] Yogeswari Padar: oh, that i understand
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No way, without legislation or a Constitutional change ;) Votes are NOT transferable!
[16:29] Yogeswari Padar: we do it here in the US too, and it makes good sense
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not that i don't trust *you* FR :)
[16:29] Yogeswari Padar: but in SL? on the internet? if you can get onto the web, or into your email, you should be able to log into SL and vote!
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but imagine that one day, the voting machine is handled by Ulrika's alt.
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Would you trust her to handle all passwords, to be able to vote for N citizens? :)
[16:30] You: makes a lot of sense, imagine also doctors and nurses, firemen, policemen, etc - eeryone that i on duty on election days
[16:30] You: everyone that is*
[16:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, this is the kind of thing that needs to be addressed with either legislation or a Constituitional amendment...
[16:31] Prokofy Neva is online
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... it can't be a mere administrative act.
[16:31] You: Gwyn, i agree
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just one of many examples.
[16:31] Yogeswari Padar: absolutely not
[16:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: of why things should be flexible enough to handle all these issues-
[16:31] FlipperPA Peregrine is online
[16:32] You: this is a very good example why a constituonal revision is sometimes needed
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, Moon
[16:33] Yogeswari Padar: yes
[16:33] You: this situation had never occured.... our system wasn't ready to deal with that
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[16:33] You: so, on thing to consider there
[16:33] Jon Seattle: I agree, but I think we may need to anticipate some of DPU's arguments on this issue.
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and so we'll have angry citizens that were expecting to vote by proxy on these elections... but our legislation does not address it... and by fearing to make changes,
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: you tend to overstep the legislation and go directly to administrative acts. Very dangerous!
[16:34] Flyingroc Chung: oops, sorry csdf meeting?
[16:34] Flyingroc Chung: lol
[16:34] You: yes, indeed
[16:34] You: lol FR
[16:34] You: yes
[16:35] Jon Seattle: You are welcome here FR
[16:35] Flyingroc Chung: I'll head out then :-)
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh, it's supposed to be open to all, FR :D
[16:35] You: but an opn meeting!
[16:35] Flyingroc Chung: oh
[16:35] Flyingroc Chung: ?
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the whole point, actually!
[16:35] You: please stay and discuss these atters with us :)
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe yes,
[16:35] You: matters*
[16:35] You: ok
[16:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the CSDF knows it's own platform ;) and needs open discussion to see what is wrong with it ;) hehe
[16:35] You: so we see why the need to make revisions to fundamental text
[16:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jon, I would stick to the same argument. Replacing legislation by administrative acts removes validation by the citizens' representatives directly...
[16:36] You: we defend that a period of constitutional discussion occurs in the next legislature
[16:36] Jon Seattle: Gwyn, I think that is an excellent argument/
[16:37] You: also because a few things that have never happened before will happen during teh next legislature
[16:37] Flyingroc Chung: placing the onus of every descision on the RA is inefficient
[16:37] You: we will expnd to two sims, for a start
[16:37] Tony Beckett is online
[16:37] Ravenna Eponym is online
[16:37] You: there are two proposals of two different models to run those sims and the enlarged cmmunity
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah yes, FR — thus the Cabinet ;)
[16:38] Jon Seattle: The US constitiution is supposed to represents principles that are unchanging or at least change very slowly. Making it difficult to amend it supposed to even out suden fads or political swings.
[16:38] You: either of thenm that is chosen, there will actually be a NEED to make a constitutional revision
[16:39] You: well Jon
[16:39] Jon Seattle: (I am just trying to anticipate DPU here.)
[16:39] You: to teh sudden fads or political swngs
[16:40] You: we propose that he constitutional discussion be public (as it already is)
[16:40] You: but we also propose that teh resulting changes be ratified by referendum
[16:41] You: this would, we believe, fight the fad or political swing issue
[16:41] Jon Seattle: What about the argument that there is a need to separate out operating principles from other proposals
[16:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "other proposals" being..?
[16:42] You: can you please clarify? ;)
[16:43] You: and thanks for playing Devil's Advocate, btw ;)
[16:43] Jon Seattle: That is to say, the constituion consists of meta-rules, the rules for deciding other rules
[16:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe indeed — you're good at it, Jon!
[16:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[16:43] Jon Seattle: and as such should be simple, and clear
[16:43] You: exactly
[16:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That should be a *goal*, yes.
[16:43] You: ok... do go on
[16:44] Jon Seattle: Moon, very welcome btw! :)
[16:44] Jon Seattle: So, wont this other approach lead to complex and large numbers of consititutal rules as it has in the EU?
[16:45] You: hmmmm, not really, i think
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, I hardly expect the Constitution to *grow*, lol
[16:45] Jon Seattle laughs
[16:45] You: say about this example of absentee voting
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: as a matter of fact, if we scratch the Guild out, it would even *shrink* ;)
[16:46] Jon Seattle: Gwyn, lol, true!
[16:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point is not "size" of Constitution,
[16:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I also don't think that we should be worried to place *everything* there
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: actually, the DPU sometimes acts as if everything needs to be changed at the constitutional level, and I insist that the RA brings out more legislation, not more amendments...
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The issue is more adapting the "fundamental guidelines" to an ever-changing society.
[16:47] Jon Seattle: I am not sure how to make this argument well. I think that many people from the US are going to start with our concept of a constitution and that is more of a bias than a rational argument. I am not sure how to change that bias.
[16:47] You: that teh constitution will mention that right to vote is hmmm individual, inalienable, untransferrable, and that the government must provide conditions so that citizens can exert that right even if not presentially?
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Remember — the *current* constitution was thought for a model where land was shared, people didn't own property, and citizenship was loosely defined.
[16:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, very much so.
[16:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's all the Constitution should say,
[16:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the rest is legislation :)
[16:48] Owen Khan is online
[16:48] You: so you'd have a metarule... and a simple one, just another sentence added
[16:48] You: that s why discussion is important
[16:49] You: s you make sure that teh constitution is economical in writing - but complete
[16:49] Ranma Tardis is online
[16:50] You: and that you actually make sure that it says what it must say
[16:50] You: becauese, as you know,
[16:51] You: sometimes indefinition arise from the text
[16:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye.
[16:51] property Resistance is offline
[16:51] You: take this example:
[16:51] Owen Khan is offline
[16:51] Jon Seattle: Gwyn. recently Sudane told me that it may soon be a policy that no two citizens could hold land in common. It seems to me that such a fundimental rule should require a constituinal change.. but we are not there yet.
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh?
[16:52] You: oh, she told me the same too
[16:52] Cloud Abernathy is offline
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really?
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*
[16:52] Jon Seattle: Yes, and I am not sure how this would happen, an adminsrative change, legislation, or constitutional change.
[16:53] Yogeswari Padar: i'm confused
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least, legislative. The constitution does not even address private property!
[16:53] Jon Seattle: It happend when I asked that Moon be added to the group that owns the land here.
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh I see.
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, citizenship is defined by owning your *own* land,
[16:53] You: maybe it has to do with a difficulty to track citizenship
[16:53] You: lol, yes
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but it's loosely defined as well on what that means ;)
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Moon
[16:53] You: but hmmm
[16:54] Yogeswari Padar: for instance, if my alt is part of the group that owns "my" land, is she a citizeN?
[16:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would say that things like defining citizenship in broad terms should be constitutional,
[16:54] You: tht could be solved by other ways, i think
[16:54] Sudane Erato is offline
[16:54] You: ndeed Gwyn! it should
[16:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: other things like "for practical purposes of census — tracking valid citizens — every citizen should have their own land", these should be legislative.
[16:54] Jon Seattle: So we can easily argue that the constituion is very incomplete because it does not address property at all!
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally so, Jon!
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree,
[16:55] You: and yes Jon, quite right
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since it was based on a time that "property" did not made sense for the initial Anzere model.
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So,
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: things changed,
[16:55] Yogeswari Padar: and, even more basic - do we want to tie citizenship to property ownership?
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: in this case — radically!
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Yoge,
[16:55] You: see also that it defines citizenship through a concept - property - that isn't addressed
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is a big issue about that point.
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and Moon — so right!)
[16:55] Dnate Mars is online
[16:56] Fau Ferdinand is offline
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have the problem with "enforceability". In SL it means two things: access to two resources: land & money.
[16:56] Ravenna Eponym is offline
[16:56] You: these are loopholes and indefinitions that our fundamental text has - and which can become more of an issue as we grow
[16:56] Fau Ferdinand is online
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If you want to enforce rules, the only option in a private island is to hold the land as uh guarantee, escrow, whatever.
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now,
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: after yesterday's meeting, though,
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it seems that other procedures could be enforceable with the new group-jurisdiction-community system to be introduced by Robin :)
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... so very likely we could define citizenship WITHOUT property.
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which would mean a change of the constitution.
[16:58] You: indeed
[16:58] Yogeswari Padar: proof of residency - renters, owners, etc... register to vote, like in most countries, yes?
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The point here that Moon is making is that we cannot afford to have things "written on stone". As SL changes, we need our flexibiliy.
[16:58] Yogeswari Padar: yes, i agree
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yoge, yes, but iRL you have enforceability.
[16:58] Flyingroc Chung: change in constitution?
[16:58] Flyingroc Chung: for citiznship?
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ FR. Yes.
[16:58] You: yes FR
[16:59] Yogeswari Padar: if the constitution speaks to universal suffrage, then legislation can make the changes needed
[16:59] You: and indeed Yogeswari
[16:59] Flyingroc Chung: oh yeah
[16:59] Flyingroc Chung: we changed that. lol
[16:59] Jon Seattle: I am going to have to head home in IRL unfortunatly..
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, ok, Jon :)
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you for taking out some of your work time to be with us!
[17:00] You: ok, Jon, thanks for showing up and once again lending your place :)
[17:00] Yogeswari Padar: yes, thank you, jon
[17:00] Jon Seattle: Oh, you are very welcome! See you tomorow
[17:00] Jon Seattle smiles warmly at everyone.
[17:00] You: see you tomorrow! :)
[17:01] Jon Seattle waves
[17:01] You: *waves*
[17:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can still discuss a bit more :D
[17:01] You: yes lol
[17:01] Jon Seattle is offline
[17:01] You: we started a bit late anyway
[17:01] Showdog Tiger is offline
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well,
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least one thing most people agree with,
[17:02] Psyra Extraordinaire is offline
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: is that changing the Constitution should be *harder*.
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that makes a lot of sense to me.
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Harder, yes. Impossible, no!
[17:03] You: exactly, not impossible
[17:03] You: but you can make levels of approval
[17:03] You: it can be discussed in RA by teh representatives of teh citizens
[17:03] You: which do a previosu discussion and prepare teh wording
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: indeed, and limit the time for discussion, the scope of change, the way it gets approved, etc
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Moon
[17:03] You: then
[17:04] Psyra Extraordinaire is online
[17:05] You: the SC can review the text, and can prepare the actual wording of teh referendum question
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, *help* with the wording, if the RA requests it
[17:06] You: and finally, in teh referendum, the citizens ratify the new text
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn is always worried when people request the SC to do anything outside the SC's mandate
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes,
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that most citizens are worried
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that a RA working in tandem with the SC
[17:06] Fau Ferdinand is offline
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: can basically approve *anything*
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And it's not clear who has the ultimate authority on doing those Big Changesâ„¢
[17:07] Yogeswari Padar: well, isn't that basically true right now?
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes it is, Yoge.
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We had 10 amendments or so
[17:07] You: lol @Big Changes TM
[17:07] Yogeswari Padar: ha ha
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and none was even superficially discussed
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean,
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm naturally guilty,
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since I *agreed* with all the changes
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they were necessary — even more would have been necessary!
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But somehow it seems that it was "weak"
[17:08] You: well, teh referendum would clarify the question, right?
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: somehow there should be a bit more
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: citizen's validation of the changes.
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The current model does not allow for that.
[17:08] Fau Ferdinand is online
[17:08] You: because, after all, you could vote 'no'
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the first change will probably be: how to change the Constitution,
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: how to validate the decisions
[17:09] You: and you could discuss why +no+, and even campaign for +no+
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: how to introduce a referendum without the fear of relapsing into direct democracy,
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: etc
[17:10] You: well, gwyn
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also, perhaps, how to make sure that citizens don't fear that the Constitution is not changed *too much* :D
[17:10] You: in most countries, you have representative democrad+cy that has a referendum figure in it
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye Moon,
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but also, in most countries, the scope of the referendum is well defined:
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if it's binding, or advisory;
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who calls for it, and who validates the need for one.
[17:11] You: teh constitutions of those countries refer in what cases can a referendum be called
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: all that is to be addressed!
[17:11] You: yes
[17:12] You: but it must be adressed
[17:12] Prokofy Neva is offline
[17:12] You: and it must be adressed now o we can prepare for expansion
[17:12] Tony Beckett is offline
[17:13] Tony Beckett is online
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes... it's supposed to be part of the CSDF's platform as well, right?
[17:13] You: i think what is also important to bereferred here
[17:13] You: and yes indeed Gwyn
[17:13] You: is that tehse changes will happen
[17:14] You: it is not only teh CSDF proposing that the Guild be destituted of governmental status
[17:15] You: teh DPU lso proposes changes to teh status of Guild - and that status is defined constitutionally
[17:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, there is no way to work around that *without* changing the constitution, IMO
[17:16] You: CSDF and DPU propose two different ways to run teh enlarged territory and expanded community - and no matter which you choose, it must be written down also in constitution
[17:16] You: yes
[17:16] Claude Desmoulins is online
[17:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh yes.
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that many things have been recently being sidestepped out of the constitution :P
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is not good.
[17:17] You: i insist on this because citizens do ask: 'oh, wouldn't that need to that teh constitution be changed?'
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ie. is the CDS a "Federation"? So, well, we need a constitutional change for that,
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: since our constitution talks about a "democratic republic":
[17:17] Jade Lily is online
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and so on and so on.
[17:17] Tateru Nino is online
[17:18] You: so i think it is fair to make it clear right now that yes, changes must happen
[17:18] Riffey4 DeGroot is offline
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And that people should not be "afraid" of those changes.
[17:19] Mera Pixel is offline
[17:19] You: and that they're going to adress fundamental things: nature of state, nature of government, even definitionof citizenship
[17:19] You: yes, exactly
[17:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Actually, I'm personally much more "afraid" of ad hoc decisions, moving things over into the administrative, or worse, delegating tasks without responsability, etc.
[17:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, exactly right ... these three items you mentioned *should* be in the constitution!
[17:20] Mera Pixel is online
[17:20] You: FR, Yoge, Gwyn
[17:20] You: comments please :)
[17:20] Torley Linden is offline
[17:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh well,
[17:20] Robin Linden is online
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What can I say but repeat myself?
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the major issues: - not being afraid of change
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - embody fundamental principles in the Constitution that weren't ever addressed yet
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hello Dnate!)
[17:21] You: oh, hi Dnate!
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - make teh constitution harder to change, yes, but expect change
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: - add a referendum
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: what else hmm
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah yes,
[17:22] Yogeswari Padar: i agree, gwyn, we have to expect change, and be open to it
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: keep difficult decisions in both constitution/legislation,
[17:22] Yogeswari Padar: our basic values and tenets make up our constitution, but we must be open to making change when society requires it
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: delegate to the administrative as soon as those functions are clear, but not before
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: some things proposed by either faction
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: NEED a constitutional change
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: no matter what else,
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and no matter what the faction(s) might be claiming otherwise :)
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[17:23] Mera Pixel is offline
[17:23] You: :)
[17:23] Mera Pixel is online
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: examples: federation, executive powers, local representation
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At least the principles should be on the constitution,
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: even if the overall procedures are the province of the legislation. Anyway...
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that was rather it :)
[17:24] Misty Rhodes is online
[17:24] You: ok, thanks :)
[17:24] Prokofy Neva is online
[17:25] Alazarin Mondrian is offline
[17:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks to *you* hehe
[17:25] Flyingroc Chung: gwyn, I'
[17:25] Flyingroc Chung: ve a couple of questions about the elections
[17:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Go ahea,
[17:25] You: if nobody else would like to comment then, shall we close this meeting?
[17:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *ahead
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: although I have more likely a dozen questions, and fewer answers :)
[17:26] Flyingroc Chung: well, close the meeting first
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please Moon!
[17:26] Flyingroc Chung: lol
[17:26] You: ok, thank you all for showing up and discussing :)
[17:26] Flyingroc Chung: ok, 1, voter eligibility
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, *good* question.
[17:26] You: meeting closed
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