[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Does anyone here have a good argument for or against this proposal? I am not yet sure, but I have some doubts.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I do, lol[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Olive:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Felix Duesenburg[/b:2k2nh6r6]: folks, i have to leave... thanks for letting me listen in. this is an interesting project[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I'll have to pick up the notecard again, just one second.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Olive:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Felix Duesenburg[/b:2k2nh6r6]: thx gxeremio for the invitation[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: And sure, Felix, thanks for being with us here![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Thanks for joining us Felix![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Olive:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Felix Duesenburg[/b:2k2nh6r6]: have a nice meeting[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: thanks felix, for joining us [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: thanks, have fun [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Bye Felix [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ah, too late again[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle listens to Gwyn[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I will only repeat myself over and over again, but perhaps I can think a bit on each separate issue...[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: 1) What is the purpose of the referendum really?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: A) Make amendments harder[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle nods[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: B) Having another way to put checks on legislative procedures[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: C) More citizen's participation on the public processes[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Then...[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hmmm, also make the constituionatl matter hmm stronger?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Green:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Cedric Aderdeen forgot to knock[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: 2) What advantages will it bring over the current model?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: lol welcome Cedric [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Green:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Cedric Aderdeen meekly closes the door and knocks[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Green:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Cedric Aderdeen Mewls Softly[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: A) Slower approvals, allowing better thinking on issues[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Cedric, feel free to join us [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: This is a CSDF meeting, a poltical faction in NFS[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: B) Preventing RA/SC to act in tandem[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hi Ced.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Green:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Cedric Aderdeen[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hiyas![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: C) Forcing the RA to think more on "laws" and less on "constitutional changes"[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hello Cedric [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: 3) What are the referendum's strongest points?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: A) People feel involved[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: B) People are able to prevent a government to go crazy on changes[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: C) All citizens have a *direct* participation on democracy, and not only a representative participation.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle listens to Gwyn[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: 4) Weakest points?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: A) Degeneration on "base democracy" ? where nobody agrees[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: *direct democracy[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: B) NFS becomes conservative (think Switzerland!) and does not adapt to change[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hi Dnate [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Teal:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Dnate Mars[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hi[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hiya dnate [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: C) Uninformed citizens will vote on emotional matters, not political ones.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hi Dnate[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Welcome [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes, B, that we might not adapt, is my greatest concern.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now for a bit.[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: well, i think B is a grave concern[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Teal:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Dnate Mars[/b:2k2nh6r6]: sorry I am late [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: people are naturally resistant to change[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle smiles at DNate, np![/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: They are indeed.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: so... issue there is balance really[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The ones who are not,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: will always be a minority.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: oth, I am very much in favor of things that promote greater participation[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The ones who are resistant to change may either vote "no", or simply not vote,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: in either case, the referenda will never pass[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ah, yes, that's also another thing... binding referenda[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Participation, yes [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ah yes[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: This proposal is for a binding referendum on constititutional changes.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ie.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: people directly participating on legislative matters.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: "Advisory" referenda are something completely different ? I have absolutely nothing against those.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Sort of an "official poll" to know what people think.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: yes, but those can easily be made even through group tools[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Example: "What should be the name of the over-arching government of Neuferistadt and Colonia Nova?" We did that once.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes, I think I would be much happier with an advistory referenda[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: In that case, why not just wait until election time to poll citizens at the same time they vote?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: i must say that[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: i am in two minds about this[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: on one side, i am a constitutional iconoclast [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle laughs lightly[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: i would like to have a provision for regular revisions of teh Const, say, two weeks in each legislature, so the RA could actually schedule those discussions[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: otoh, i observe what i see here (RL) with referenda[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: only the politically compromised vote[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the electoral base as a rule ignores them[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and they fail to be binding[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: of course[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the NFS population is very diverse from theRL one: it is smaller and has greater participation[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: also is more homogeneous in terms of political compromise[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: so i think: maybe tehy coudl work?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Moon ? that is something slightly different,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ie. not introducing the concept of referenda,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but of constitutional revision [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: yes, lol, i know[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Which, I think, is the point here.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: just to say i am not constitutionally conservative[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and as i referred in last RA[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the Const is already the hardest thing to change in our political sys[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: since it needs a ualified vote in one branch[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and teh ratification of a second branch[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Teal:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Dnate Mars[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I am sorry guys, but I have to run :/[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Nice to see you Dnate [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Bye bye for now, Dnate [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: bye Dnate :9[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: this to say[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: that the referenda introduce really a change in the system[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle nods[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well, I still have some doubts. Lets move on to commonwealth?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: lol, doubts yes![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but please, move on[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, did you want to say something about your proposal? You do know that we took have taken a stand about supporting a republic.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: sorry afk[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: need to be for a minute...can you move on and come back?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: sure, we'll wait for you[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I can say a few words[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I see us as needing two kinds of growth.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: in my opinion, right now, we are too small to be an effective federation.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant listens[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I do think we do want a federal structure, but each component of that structure should be much larger than the 30 - 40 members we have now.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: So really we should hrown within our system before we start to create divisions. At the same time, I think a place where we can reasonably[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Agreed....[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: have a looser organization is with the Franches.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: agreed![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but the Franches proposal that has been voted is solely for individuals[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: of course, i think that the group land act is also a good way to promote that looser organization[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes, but a franch can be occupied by groups if they first become citizens.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant looks at gwyn's sign[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: indeed.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: lol gwyn[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle lol Gwyn[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Though I do hope Gxeremio can adress some of these issues.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hope so as well[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: oh, i hadn't seen that image yet[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ok back[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: wb [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: my wife is traveling and her plane was having some problems and had to go back to the airport.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ah. Gxe, do you need to go?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: oh [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: No it's okay.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: We talked on the phone some.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Just wanted to give her my full attention, you know. [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle listens to Gxeremio[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: OK so what questions or observations do you have about the idea of a Commonwealth[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: of course Gxer [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, if you read back a little, that may be a start.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well, the issue is mostly ? why such a huge structure for so little people? (and yes, read back )[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: yes[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: OK. Well let me start by pitching the idea to you as if it already existed and Nstadt was invited to join it.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: i must say also i would like to hear your proposals on commonwealth, Gxe[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle listens to Gxeremio[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The democratic experiment in Nstadt is admirable. What would benefit you in associating with other democratic governments?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: You would want a way to expand the borders of your enforcable contracts, to have more people with whom you can reliably do business.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: You would want it not to be too burdensome in the requirements of membership - you don't want to be a vassal state of some other group, and you want to be able to keep your traditions and try new things with your govt as you see fit.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: You would want to make sure your interests are represented, even if you were a smaller member of this Commonwealth.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: None of these things are possible for people joining us as franchulates, but they are all possible under my Commonwealth proposal.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant listens to Gxeremio very interetedly[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hmm[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxe[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: is yoru commonwealth a federation or a confederation ?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: It is infinitely scalable - the number of reps is related to the number of member governments and at-large citizens, and the number of Judicial officials is determined by the Legislature.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Moon, those terms are used in different ways by different people. I would describe it as more of a confederation, though it is strong and flexible enough to enforce its will when needed.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, right now SL is a world where there are really, just about no other democratic sims.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: There are, however, clear ways to terminate membership if needed, after a process of determining that all debts were paid up.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Jon, I submit that the reason for that is people have very little encouragement to try democratic governance. My proposal helps give some incentives for that.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, are you talking more about franches and similar arangements or about sims we create like Colonia Nova?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I could go either way. To be honest, I think it would be great if CN had the independence to try its own system, perhaps based more on Roman law.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: But I don't mind if "member governments" are more than one sim large.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant nods[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I just think the CN expansion is a good and practical way to encourage innovation.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: What are the common elements that will keep a loose organization tied together? Especially with the rate of change in SL and the fact that many of the geograpic reasons for association really do not exist?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio ? just for me as areference ? you've posted your proposal on the forums?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ok.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I'm perhaps 100 posts or so behind in the forums, I surely need to catch up [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and me [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Jon. Good points. And those are issues that I think our current system is not addressing adequately. The ties that bind are a common vision for democracy, a Legislature comprised of 2 members of each member government and a proportionate representatio[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: n of "at-large" citizens, an Executive directly elected by the people of the Commonwealth, and a Judiciary empowered to interpret Commonwealth laws and settle disputes.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: bicameral sys?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yoge, hello [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, but what will the legislature do?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: namaste Yoge! [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Unicameral in my first draft, to keep it simple and clear.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hi all![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hello Yoge! [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: good to see you, it's been a while [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle smiles brightly at Yoge[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The Legislature will set overall laws about IP, contracts, and other issues that go across sim lines. Remember that the reps in the Legislature have a clear constituency - their member governments.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hi Yoge.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: In other words, there would be 2 reps whose only concern was the well-being of the people of Nstadt.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I notice that many of our proposals in the RA, other than structural changes, are really about land use and management. I assume that under your model those issues would be local?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Precisely.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ooops.. I think we lost Portugual.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The Commonwealth wouldn't collect land fees.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: whoops, looks lke we lost portugal[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Dang.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Should we wait?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle lol Yoge, great minds. [/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ha ha[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes, they may be back shortly.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle hugs Moon[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: wb![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the place looks good, jon[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: stupid isp---[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: thanks [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle smiles at Gwyn[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant hugs Jon[/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: wb[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: thanks, thanks [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Sorry, back.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: So, Gxeremio, here is one of my issues. Right now the SL economy is mainly crafts and land.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: what happened?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Oh, ISP dropped our connection, Yoge [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Blue:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Yogeswari Padar[/b:2k2nh6r6]: [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: isp changes DNS to prepare for happy hour[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: There are very few economic entities that are large or even medium sizes.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well... what I was typing,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: is that that model of the COmmonwealth[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: is not even for the CDS to *decide*[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hi folks. I dare to show my face after insulting all of your efforts on the forum.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hello Rudy [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: That's true Jon. But what if I want to enter into a contract with a builder for a custom build? Or with an entertainer? Or a writer for my paper? Right now contracts between us are only as good as the notecard they're written on.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: lol[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hi.)[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: how so? [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][i:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn doesn't read the forums since early October [/i:2k2nh6r6][/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ah, Rudy, what did you do?![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: hehe[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gwyn, my suggestion is for the CDS to become the Commonwealth.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ah[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I understand,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Nothing except had a prostate biopsy.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but it's not our purpose to devise such a model![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hope yo women never have one.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Why not?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Oh Rudy ? I hope nothing is wrong with you![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and lol[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: oh, i hope you're well?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the looser the ties,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the more reasonable it is[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: No, no cancer was spotted. But undignifieid, if you know what I mean. And all the nurses that gatherd around.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: to get similarly-aligned groups to get together[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: instead of having one imposing the rules,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and the others joining it.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: sorry to hear that Rudy [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Well that's why I say it would be cool to have CN be a charter member of the Commonwealth of Democratic States as a member government in its own right.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: My face is still red. sorry for interrupting.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ah Gxeremio. I see your point,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but I guess it's too late for that,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: NFS has already bought the sim [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: And the creation of such a group would surely spur others (such as my own Esperanto group) to action, as well as making a way for at-large citizens to be part of the system as well.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: ... so we could think of it on the *next* sim perhaps?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: But nobody would prevent a "United Nations" of democratic (or not democratic) sims to be created![/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gwyn - is it unthinkable to release the sim to the citizens?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I'm pretty sure the CDS would join the Commonwealth and be very happy to present suggestions there.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Hmm[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, that would divide us in to tiny groups, and we would miss the benifits of a larger community.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the *citizens* have bought the sim [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The benefits are kept under the Commonwealth (at least all the ones I can think of), plus there is a sense of belonging to a smaller group that has powers of its own as well.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: But hmm[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio... what I fail to understand,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: is why should the CDS be the only one promoting such an idea.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Rather,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: like the RL UN[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: or the EU[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, historically groups with no ties in trade or geography tend to drift apart.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I'm not trying to get at a UN. I'm trying to help promote democracy in SL.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: the other SL nations should come together and talk together.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: well... geogarphically, sims coudl be moved to make the Commonwealth continent...[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: So hmm[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Jon the ties are in trade - via enforceable contracts among its citizens.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: We should not only promote ONE model of democracy,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: but SEVERAL models of democracy?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I mean,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: just this one is giving us all headaches [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gwyn - yes. The more groups experimenting, the more likely we are to find systems which work well in SL.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, I am very much doubting that substantial trade will emerge. You see, we are a craft and not a coorporate economy.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Ok.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: You wouldn't be directly involved in governing each of them, Gwyn.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: No, just in setting them up...[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: and many more people trade with outside vendors.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Jon, we are becoming very much a service and information economy and desperately need IP and contract laws.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: But hmm[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: *anyone* can do that,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: we're not "special" [/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: The CSDF has one item on their programme,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: called "Open Source Democracy"[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Moon Adamant[/b:2k2nh6r6]: well, we have the infrastructure...[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: it's a support programme, if you wish,[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: I'm confused by what you're saying, Gwyn. Here's a clear need, best met by democratic communities, but we're not in the best position to meet that need?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: to aid others to establish themselves.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=Navy:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Jon Seattle[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Gxeremio, granted, but CDS does not have the ability to impose that on the larger SL world. And we are a particular "service" economy in that almost all of our vendors are individuals of very small groups.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Yes, I think more like Jon, actually.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: We can "lead by example"[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: We can create a package of support to set people up[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Jon so what are you saying - we don't need IP and contract law?[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: benefitting from our experience.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkOrange:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2k2nh6r6]: We certainly do, and we're certainly also able to help others up.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=DarkRed:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Gxeremio Dimsum[/b:2k2nh6r6]: A lot of my proposal hinges on the question of what we can better do together than alone or in small groups.[/color:2k2nh6r6]
[color=SlateGray:2k2nh6r6][b:2k2nh6r6]Rudy Ruml[/b:2k2nh6r6]: Have yo thoight of an abassador of CDS to go around to different sims about joining an EU type democracy?[/color:2k2nh6r6]