RA Town Hall Meeting 18 April 2010: Transcript - Part 2

[mikeloserevi]

[10:13] Arria Perreault: I have paid 4 months of fees for each empty parcels and the money was used to organize events
[10:13] Patroklus Murakami: so, some ppl like events and want the CDS to pay for them. that's fine, if everyone agrees
[10:14] Arria Perreault: CDS could have also sponsored my project
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: but, if ppl would prefer less spent on events and lower tier rates... that's also fine too if that's what ppl want
[10:14] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, it's not "some people like events"- it's events bring a community together and draw in new people to join the community
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, Kas, is that what you're trying to say: "panem et circensis", so long as the organisation is nice and does good things for the people, we don't really need to meet, discuss, and vote?
[10:14] Solomon Mosely: oh, my bad.
[10:14] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, all the commercial land barons do that
[10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: I think CDS needs to keep bringing in new people.
[10:14] Kaseido Quandry: and much cheaper
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: so you say kas, but where is teh evidence?
[10:14] Arria Perreault: we are not barons, Kas
[10:14] Kaseido Quandry: Pat: AA.
[10:14] Patroklus Murakami: look at this way. some ppl like building and designing new sims
[10:14] Pip Torok: I think we need BOTH, Gwyn...
[10:14] Tor Karlsvalt: Events help show off the sims to potential new citizens.
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: should we buy a new one with our reserves to make them happy?
[10:15] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, no, you're not as cheap as groups that provide no services
[10:15] Kaseido Quandry: but you don't get to charge a premium *and* provide no services
[10:15] Arria Perreault: Not only events
[10:15] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes, Pat, if that is good for the community
[10:15] Tor Karlsvalt: make s it grow.
[10:15] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: lol Kas.
[10:15] Arria Perreault: I am against that idea that only events bring venus
[10:15] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: YOu are you.
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: lol Tor, what about whether we can afford it or not/
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: ?
[10:15] Arria Perreault: what is the conversion rate of all these events for CDS ?
[10:15] Mikelo Serevi: I found and joined the CDS without attending an event first
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: whether we have ppl waiting to move in?
[10:16] Claude Desmoulins: I don't. think anyone says events are bad
[10:16] Tor Karlsvalt: Sometimes you have to spent mney to make money
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: we need to have fiscal responsiblity
[10:16] Kaseido Quandry: With 2 million lndens in a non interest bearing account, you can afford a dj or two, lol
[10:16] nohelia Avindar: si me disaculpan tengo que salir.......ha sido un placer estar aqui
[10:16] nohelia's Google Translator: disaculpan if I have to leave me ....... it was a pleasure to be here
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: we used to have no events budget
[10:16] Arria Perreault: events are not bad, BUT we have other things to offer to people
[10:16] Mikelo Serevi: bye nohelia
[10:16] Imotali Antiesse: See you nohelia
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: several of us agitated for one to be formed
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: with lots of opposition by the way
[10:16] Lilith Ivory: bye nohelia
[10:16] Pip Torok: whatever we are in the "black" ... its the _deficit_ that matters
[10:17] nohelia Avindar: y les doy la enohorabuena por el sim que es una autentica realidad
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: but it has grown massivley in teh meantime
[10:17] nohelia's Google Translator: and give them the enohorabuena by the sim that is a true reality
[10:17] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so Kas, CDS has lots of vendors who would be happy to sponsor events
[10:17] Tor Karlsvalt: most everywhere I go in SL, beople whant to do something.
[10:17] Imotali Antiesse: nohelia
[10:17] nohelia Avindar: se lo digo yo que soy de granada y lo visito bastante
[10:17] Kaseido Quandry: so CLEO, let's talk - I've done a bunch of evens management, and I'd be happy to help
[10:17] nohelia Avindar: se cuidan besos
[10:17] nohelia's Google Translator: take care kisses
[10:17] Kaseido Quandry: as Pat says, the legislature isn't the CDS :p
[10:17] Arria Perreault: bye Nohelia
[10:17] nohelia Avindar: bye
[10:18] Patroklus Murakami: but the event budget is something we can debate and change democratically
[10:18] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, agreed
[10:18] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: exactly pat
[10:18] Arria Perreault: I have a question for AA poeple (even I don't like this expression)
[10:18] Tor Karlsvalt: Anyway, we can see how the merger leads into so manyaspets of CDS life.
[10:19] Arria Perreault: Why do you want to be with us?
[10:19] Arria Perreault: Give me some reasons
[10:19] Arria Perreault: You see us not really positively
[10:19] Kaseido Quandry: good question, Arria, thank you
[10:19] Arria Perreault: you can be autonomous
[10:19] Arias Ahren: The reputation
[10:19] CLEOPATRA Xigalia listens carefully
[10:19] Arias Ahren: The history
[10:19] Arias Ahren: The creations
[10:20] Arias Ahren: the people
[10:20] Tor Karlsvalt: I am new, and not an AA resident. but isn't AA sort of a spawn of CDS?
[10:20] Arria Perreault: you have a vibrant community an high venue
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: we should also think of the recommendation to the RA. what should the CDS do? should the RA vote to dissolve the merger or not?
[10:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (historically, yes, Tor)
[10:20] Tor Karlsvalt: I mean, didn't CDS people create AA?
[10:20] Arias Ahren: No
[10:20] Arria Perreault: until now, I don't really understand the real advantage for AA to be with us
[10:20] Patroklus Murakami: yes tor, they did. AA was once a candidate for our third sim
[10:20] Tor Karlsvalt: Well maybe it feels naturual to want to come home,
[10:20] Wasp Thor: Micael Manen told me on time that AA only has one mission on SL, to be the most beautiful....I think events and programs that foster this goal are more interesting to the general membership than merger squables....Take a count of just how many new people attend these meetings I sim of all...
[10:20] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: well, sort of.. i can tell you how AA came about if you want to know IM me.
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I see an interesting possibility in what Tor and Gwyn have said - that there might be a creative synthesis that benefits both parties to the merger
[10:21] Arria Perreault: what is the benefit for AA
[10:21] Arria Perreault: give me one reason
[10:21] Claude Desmoulins: kas do you feel you get nothing from the merger now?
[10:21] Arias Ahren: Your Monastery
[10:21] Kaseido Quandry: Claude, I'm too new to have a firm answer to that
[10:21] Arria Perreault: you see only bad things in the way we manage CDS. hy to stay with us?
[10:22] Kaseido Quandry: what I can say is, my impression of the CDS had been the RA
[10:22] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: The merger can and should only remain if it does not in any way threaten CDS as a viable DEMOCRACY. if that is threatened let them go. in my opion
[10:22] Kaseido Quandry: as I spend more time in the CDS *community*, I find it's much richer and more lively
[10:22] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: CDS is the only remaining .. yadda yadda.. right ?
[10:22] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: of an old linden experiment
[10:22] Kaseido Quandry: and that the people may really add to AA's cultural richness
[10:22] Arria Perreault: yes, but you want we (as CDS) change and you don't want to change
[10:22] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, that's flat wrong
[10:23] Imotali Antiesse: hard to answer why want to join cDS. I havent born in SL even.
[10:23] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: We can change.. but we cannot stop being a democracy.
[10:23] Arria Perreault: Kas, my question is "what is the benefit for AA", not for CDS
[10:23] Mikelo Serevi: well, there has been a lot of vague talk of change
[10:23] Arias Ahren: Arria, I think compromises can be made.
[10:23] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I began to answer that
[10:23] Patroklus Murakami: hi ranma, welcome long time, no see
[10:23] Arria Perreault is listening
[10:23] Kaseido Quandry: AA needs more working staff, and it needs to not be dependent on the continued energy and optimism of Rose
[10:23] Ranma Tardis: hello my friends
[10:23] Lilith Ivory: Hi Ramna
[10:24] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: What IS the fundamental mission of CDS that is uncompromizable though?
[10:24] Kaseido Quandry: the CDS structure may offer a better alternative to single-point ownership
[10:24] Solomon Mosely: same for cds kas
[10:24] Mikelo Serevi: hi ranma, nice to see you
[10:24] Kaseido Quandry: fair point, Solomon
[10:24] Pip Torok: imo CLEO ... the issue of representation and communication
[10:24] Arria Perreault: then why woud change our structure if you think you can benefit from them
[10:24] Arria Perreault: ?
[10:25] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, there are two separate things there
[10:25] Kaseido Quandry: one is the basic structure of your governmental system
[10:25] Kaseido Quandry: another is its byzantine complexity and politiical culture
[10:25] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes Kas I think that was prime concern in AA.
[10:25] Kaseido Quandry: if *you* think those things are inseperable, then I think you should vote against the merger
[10:26] Tor Karlsvalt: Rose is looking for a way to manage AA.
[10:26] Arria Perreault: we cannot have a democratic life without a politic culture ...
[10:26] Arria Perreault: sorry
[10:26] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: agree arria
[10:26] Kaseido Quandry: Yes - and, honestly, I see more politics for its own sake than management happening in the CDS
[10:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have another question. Imagine that the RA would actually be, say, Rose, Satir, Jamie, Delia, Stiu, etc.
[10:26] Patroklus Murakami: the structure can be changed. the culture takes longer though
[10:27] Solomon Mosely: right arria, but there's no reason to think that the cds culture, as it is, is perfect
[10:27] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Kas.
[10:27] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, if you think your political culture can't benefit from other perspectives, *de-merge*!
[10:27] Solomon Mosely: and above evolution
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Would AA citizens say: "ah, yes, I can believe it would work under them"
[10:27] Pip Torok: and what may be "byzantine" for one may be necessary for another ...
[10:27] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: managing and governing arent the same are they?
[10:27] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, no
[10:27] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: you manage what you own
[10:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: right, Cleo!
[10:27] Patroklus Murakami: the RA is not about managing or governing but legislating. the chancellor is the one managing and governing
[10:27] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, I think for most people in AA, that's still an open question
[10:28] Arria Perreault: democracy is not a perfect system, it's just the less worse (not from me )
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I believe that the issue here is not about the *structure* but the *people* in it.
[10:28] Patroklus Murakami: so, the focus of attention is in the wrong place in my opinion
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Kas.
[10:28] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, I've been drifting towards your view
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the issue is people.
[10:28] Mikelo Serevi: So would you like to sweep away the people, gwyn?
[10:28] Solomon Mosely: and thts why we have elections
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So hmm´the CDS offers a way to change the current people
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mikelo: we can do that! we can vote!!
[10:28] Kaseido Quandry: it may well be there's nothing wrong with the CDS, from AA"s perspective, that a good election won't cure, lol
[10:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Sol
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: YES, Kas!
[10:29] Arria Perreault: look my favourite example: without a democratic system, I think I would not have get the sim. But there was several instances where I could my projects and at the end it worked
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: yes kas
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: whew
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think we have hit the point now.
[10:29] Mikelo Serevi: I'm only here because I was elected
[10:29] Pip Torok takes Kas' point
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's all about who is in charge )
[10:29] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, yes
[10:29] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: If we break up , we can still be friends.. /
[10:29] Arria Perreault: if only few can decide, their opinon can never be discussed
[10:29] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[10:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks, Kas
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: yes mike,
[10:29] Solomon Mosely: and as you said
[10:29] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes, and that is the problem, I think AA ppl might not excercise their vote.
[10:30] Solomon Mosely: you stepped up fbecause of a lack of others stepping up
[10:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so what!
[10:30] Tor Karlsvalt: and thus feel a bit disenfranchied in RA.
[10:30] Kaseido Quandry: well, that's up to people in AA, and can be changed
[10:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: we never have full voter turnout no one does
[10:30] Kaseido Quandry: though, I will be back with a proposed amendment to the constitutional provisions on campaigning, which I find... odd....
[10:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so get out and campaign and drag them to the polls
[10:30] Pip Torok: yes Tor ... the way to cure disenfranchisement is to vote!!!!
[10:30] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, agreed
[10:30] Tor Karlsvalt: I agree Pip
[10:30] Claude Desmoulins: Remember that all the transcripts and documents are designed to make things less dependent on a single person.
[10:30] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: put all the citizens in a hud and when they come online on voting day, IM them and offer to tp to the polls
[10:31] Tor Karlsvalt: but I was just pointingout my observation.
[10:31] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: thats how ThePrincess won i hear.
[10:31] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, I like that!
[10:31] Solomon Mosely: whats with the duality?
[10:31] Arria Perreault: what is the problem with the RA? Can you give precisions?
[10:31] Arria Perreault: examples?
[10:31] Claude Desmoulins: Are there structural things that you think need to be changed?
[10:31] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, let me put it this way -
[10:32] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it is a lot more work to live in a democracy than to live in a dictoatorshiop you are finding.
[10:32] Kaseido Quandry: I'm a law professor. I'm writing a paper on political discourse in CDS. I've been reading and studying the communty for 4 monts -
[10:32] Kaseido Quandry: and I barely understand how things work here
[10:32] Kaseido Quandry: it is too goddamn complicated!
[10:32] Mikelo Serevi: There are plenty of non democratic communities around
[10:32] Solomon Mosely: heh
[10:32] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it takes years.
[10:32] Claude Desmoulins: Do you have specific questions?
[10:33] Kaseido Quandry: and those complications haven't been undertaken in order to *do more for citizens* I don't believe
[10:33] Arias Ahren: Kas, name me a democracy that is not complicated.
[10:33] Arias's Google Translator: What, name me a Democracy is Not That Complicated.
[10:33] Arria Perreault: only this: complexity?
[10:33] Kaseido Quandry: Arias, a system should be only as complicated as it needs to be
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: the problem with the RA is that it has not had much legislation to consider. the devil makes work for idle hands....
[10:33] Arria Perreault: I have the same question than Arias
[10:33] Arias Ahren: True
[10:33] Arias's Google Translator: True
[10:33] Kaseido Quandry: and this one is *vastly* more complicated than effective management of a dozen SL sims requires
[10:33] Kaseido Quandry: lol, Pat!
[10:33] Arias Ahren: but we are human and subject to many deficiencies
[10:33] Solomon Mosely: hear hear pat
[10:33] Pip Torok respectfully disagrees
[10:33] Patroklus Murakami: but remember kas that we have a history kas
[10:33] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: so run for office Kas and make a plan to change it
[10:34] Patroklus Murakami: claude has pointed that out in his recent post
[10:34] Kaseido Quandry: ok, CLEO
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: yes, there were solid projects in the works, what happened to te GMP?
[10:34] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, that's an excellent point
[10:34] Arria Perreault: Kas, we don't intend to manage sims. We want to develop virtual democracy
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: yes kas!
[10:34] Patroklus Murakami: we are all about checks and balances to stop abuses of power
[10:34] Kaseido Quandry: aha, Arria
[10:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm
[10:34] Solomon Mosely: but to what end arria?
[10:34] Kaseido Quandry: so you see this as more of a roleplay experiment for yourselves, than in providing services to the people who pay for them
[10:35] Arria Perreault: no
[10:35] Patroklus Murakami: no kas, i don't mean that
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, we come to the second point...
[10:35] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: its not roleplay
[10:35] Arria Perreault: I find CDS fascinating
[10:35] Arria Perreault: it's not role play
[10:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Kas, that's copy & paste what I've have seen written on the forums by someone else
[10:35] Arria Perreault: our chanllenge is to maintain our community
[10:35] Tor Karlsvalt: ah the eveil Ulrika and Kendra
[10:35] Kaseido Quandry: is it not? if it's not tied to providing actual services to the people you tax, it's roleplay.
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: also, if people are paying, I assume they want to be here
[10:35] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, I can't address that, I don't know the context
[10:35] Mikelo Serevi: I never came expecting some service
[10:36] Imotali Antiesse: does RP = setup?
[10:36] Mikelo Serevi: what 'services' are we even talking about?
[10:36] Free Radar HUD v1.1 by Crystal Gadgets
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: the RAs role is to pass legislation and carry out long-term planning
[10:36] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, there's a distinction between wanting to be here and blindly endorsing everything that the government does - I think that's where your democracy comes in
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well... don't read me wrong, Kas. But that argument "it's just roleplay" has been used before to put the blame on the CDS.
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: you need to look at it over teh long-term to see what it does
[10:36] Tor Karlsvalt: I thinki effective Tier collection is a service.
[10:36] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i pay my taxes in rl, and the politicians don't always do what i want
[10:36] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, then make the shoe not fit.
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So I guess it's something that the AA citizens actually really feel it is
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: it has set an event budget when there was none
[10:36] Patroklus Murakami: it has supervised the addition of new sims
[10:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right Kas!
[10:36] Arria Perreault: if you are looking for a community which provide "services", you have probably landed at the wrong address
[10:36] Kaseido Quandry: give value back in return for taxation
[10:37] Solomon Mosely: the themem and cov. management, landscapeing, griefer management, finacial management
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: it okayed the merger and agreed the details
[10:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, we're *finally* getting answers
[10:37] Arria Perreault: all what you see here around was build by ourselves
[10:37] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: if you want your sl home to be a product you buy this is not the right place
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: but it's a mix of services and refining the administration
[10:37] Arria Perreault: we neer hired any builder
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: Are the roads in LA complete?
[10:37] Tor Karlsvalt: Seems not
[10:37] Arias Ahren: No
[10:37] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, if you as a representative of the RA are telling me to expect no return on my tax money other than the pleasure of watching you play politics -
[10:37] Arias's Google Translator: From
[10:37] Patroklus Murakami: and of finding new ways for ppl to participate
[10:38] Arias Ahren: there are many unfinished roads in LA
[10:38] Tor Karlsvalt: Is land margeted outside CDS?
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: I am *not* going to leave, but I will work to ensure your thorough trouncing at the next election, I tihnk.
[10:38] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: Kas, we are saying if you want a return, make it yourself.
[10:38] Arria Perreault: Kas, you can participate to this political life and enjoy the sims
[10:38] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, then give me back my goddamn tax money!
[10:38] Claude Desmoulins: Kas,
[10:38] Arria Perreault: this is a big venus
[10:38] Mikelo Serevi: There's a lot of criticism going around, but is it constructive?
[10:38] Tor Karlsvalt: Are events even advertised on the Event calendar timely
[10:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's an excellent point, Kas. I think *that* is another key issue: the CDS has to somehow show to everybody that we ARE providing services.
[10:38] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: VOTE
[10:38] Arria Perreault: venue*
[10:38] Claude Desmoulins: could you do something for me?
[10:38] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: if they arent then vote them out of office.
[10:39] Claude Desmoulins: What would an Ideal CDS look like?
[10:39] Mikelo Serevi: What services, gwyn?
[10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: is the Monastary exhibit even promoted by CDS?
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although the most important service we provide (apparently overlooked) is that *wnyone* can manage the CDS... all you need is to get elected
[10:39] Tor Karlsvalt: i think no was the answer to my questions.
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mikelo, yes, I think that's the secondary question: what services does the CDS *not* provide?
[10:39] Patroklus Murakami: tor, who do you think should answer your questions?
[10:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, good point Tor
[10:39] Arria Perreault: the Monastery exhibitions are promoted by myself. I did not get any help, even when I have asked, Tor
[10:40] Arria Perreault: I have asked twice for an opening party, which never happened
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: they where mainly rhetorical
[10:40] Solomon Mosely: kas, cleo and arria do not represent the cds
[10:40] Kaseido Quandry: Solomon, that's good to hear
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: but the point is tha CDS is not doing those things I menttioned
[10:40] Solomon Mosely: well, who is the new events manager or whatever in cds?
[10:40] Patroklus Murakami: well tor, what are you doing about it?
[10:40] Solomon Mosely: who is manageing the metanomics in cds?
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: I am at this meeting Pat
[10:41] Pip Torok: Claude has a point imo ... What would an Ideal CDS look like? ... let those who are dissatisfied answer ...
[10:41] Solomon Mosely: who would you approach about organizing yoru opening event arria?
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: Tor put in a lot of time helping Jayme build her cafe
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: which drew a *lot* of people, and was an outstanding affirmation of real community in the CDS
[10:41] Arria Perreault: Sonja now
[10:41] Kaseido Quandry: he's doing the work
[10:41] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: solomon , Arria and I are CDS citizens and between us have spent time and money on cds.. more than you can imagine.
[10:41] Arria Perreault: it was during the last term, Sol
[10:41] Tor Karlsvalt: Not to mention i have spent some time in world helping caretakers
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: i'm not being mean tor, it's a serious point. if you want things to change you need to ask, and i think your questions should be directed to the exec as they fall in their remit
[10:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that we're moving the question from "faults of the CDS" and start addressing "faults of the current government". The latter will be fixed by the next term elections. Let's focus on the first issue...
[10:42] Kaseido Quandry: Gwyn, that's a good point
[10:42] Mikelo Serevi: So, what have we decided about the merger, if anything?
[10:42] Arria Perreault: Sol, I will tell you something
[10:42] Tor Karlsvalt: Not all of these issues are mine, but ones that i have seen.
[10:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Let's hear what the "ideal CDS" is, not the ideal government (because we can elect a government)
[10:42] Arria Perreault: last winter, we have made a long ski slope on the Monastery sim and we have frozen the lake and installed a skate giver
[10:42] Solomon Mosely: great, you spent time and money, you didnt buy representation as the mouthpieces of cds
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: in the ideal CDS the sun shines every day... oh, done that!
[10:42] Pip Torok: Mikelo ... imo the fact that we have passed on tells me we have "agreed by default" ... is that true?
[10:42] Arria Perreault: I have informed the executive
[10:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: haha Pat.
[10:43] Arria Perreault: not promotion for that
[10:43] Kaseido Quandry: I tihnk the ideal CDS sees itself as elected management - as here to *do work* to benefit the community, not to "have the experience" of office-holding
[10:43] Solomon Mosely: and cds should have been a part of that arria
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: I don't know pip
[10:43] Arria Perreault: yes
[10:43] Solomon Mosely: and tor, you were right
[10:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that's fair, Kas
[10:43] Tor Karlsvalt: I Kas, like Town manager govt in the USA?
[10:43] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: solomon, the point of CDS is we are ALL able to give our opinons and ideas
[10:43] Solomon Mosely: cds should do more for promotion and outreach
[10:43] Kaseido Quandry: and as such, *does* event managment, supports citizen self-organized events, markets the community
[10:43] Mikelo Serevi: It seems some came here today to push a service-oriented agenda
[10:43] Kaseido Quandry: Tor, yeah
[10:43] Arias Ahren: I think that prior to adjournment we should have a straight up or down vote: Merge, Yes or No.
[10:43] Solomon Mosely: but then should you, or i just, up and do it?
[10:44] Mikelo Serevi: Find something to condemn the current RA for, then oust us perhaps?
[10:44] Solomon Mosely: or should it be a part of a greater plan of the cds?
[10:44] Arria Perreault: CDS official have promoted a small ski slope in AM and not the one of the Monastery. DO you find it's normal, SOl?
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, I have been asked a lot of questions. I have attempted to answer them
[10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: Sol, I am more than willing to help.
[10:44] Tor Karlsvalt: and have
[10:44] Arria Perreault: Solomon, what do you think of that?
[10:44] Kaseido Quandry: And yes, I have a different set of political views,, and "agenda'" from you, quite assuredly.
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: ppl shouldn't just look to the govnt to organise their lives tho. if you want to do something, get on with it! who's stopping you except yourself?
[10:45] Solomon Mosely: no, i dont think thats good
[10:45] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, I'm doing.
[10:45] Arria Perreault: thank you
[10:45] Tor Karlsvalt: Town manager govt works well in small towns in usa
[10:45] Kaseido Quandry: but I'm also paying a lot of money - what precisely am I getting for it?
[10:45] Solomon Mosely: but then, why was that?
[10:45] Arria Perreault: me too, Kas ...
[10:45] Mikelo Serevi: you're getting land, primarily, kas
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: a lot of events kas - 38k worth per month
[10:46] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: space on a server
[10:46] Arria Perreault: for the money I invest in CDS, I expect a transparent system and an equal treatment for all citizen
[10:46] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: hear hear arria
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, I'm paying $0.9L per prim surcharge over what I was paying in Azure Islands, plus an enoromous buy-in fee
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: and I ran parties on my own property there
[10:46] Mikelo Serevi: so why stay, kas?
[10:46] Pip Torok: If I pay money for Tier and objects ... then thats either a fair exchange or I wdnt do it Kas
[10:46] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: then go back kas
[10:46] Kaseido Quandry: Mikelo, *THAT IS THE MERGER QUESTION*
[10:46] Arria Perreault: if I want a party, I can give 3000 L$ to a DJ, but democracy has much more value then that ...
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: if you have nothing to offer us, why should we stay?
[10:47] Pip Torok agrees
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: right
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: for this Sunday entertainment?
[10:47] Lilith Ivory: Hi Stui
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: i doubt ppl choose to live here or leave on the basis of a comparison of tier rates
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: it's fun, but it's not worth that premium
[10:47] Arria Perreault: Kas, CDS is so
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Greetings one and all
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: hi stui
[10:47] Solomon Mosely: hey stu
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: it's worth it to me, which is why I stay
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have arrived
[10:47] Pip Torok: hi Stui!! )
[10:47] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, no, because they think -or hope -that there is some other value here.
[10:47] Solomon Mosely: wow, i wonder why mike arria and cleo are here
[10:47] Lilith Ivory smiles
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: pls click the recorder to indicate consent to be recorded for the chat log
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what have I missed ?
[10:47] Solomon Mosely: what do you guys get from being here?
[10:48] Arria Perreault: do you expect from your government it pais for all concert and museums?
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is there any key information I have missed ?
[10:48] Arria Perreault: you pay taxes too
[10:48] Kaseido Quandry: "all" no - some, yes
[10:48] Arias Ahren: This community has a great deal to offer as it stands. Appologies should not be needed.
[10:48] Pip Torok: (got 2 hours, Stui? ...
[10:48] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i love CDS, the politics and democracy, and thats why i am here. the people.. even if they hate me.
[10:48] Arria Perreault: some and I agree with that
[10:48] Kaseido Quandry: nobody's talking about CDS having a *monoploy* on events, Arria
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: we are discussing teh merger stui. lots of issues have been raised
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have as long as it takes
[10:48] Arias Ahren: Now Cleo
[10:48] Arias Ahren: Your perfume smells great.
[10:48] Arria Perreault: I am in favour of a responsible cultural management
[10:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: positive issues I assume ?
[10:49] Kaseido Quandry: so am I , Arria
[10:49] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i own other land lots of it. but i cant leave CDS.
[10:49] Claude Desmoulins: Let me float that for some of us who aren't big event people, CDS gives us security (I doubt it will disappear next week) Accountability (I can vote out those in charge) and an opportunity to shape my community that I don't find other places.
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: i think we are on 'what do we get out of the CDS? what is the CDS government for?'
[10:49] Tor Karlsvalt: We love you Cleo.
[10:49] Claude Desmoulins: I value that.
[10:49] Kaseido Quandry: Claude, that's good, thank you
[10:49] Patroklus Murakami: also community claude
[10:49] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well Pat I suppose that is different things to different people
[10:49] Kaseido Quandry: and I think AA could benefit from those things.
[10:49] Pip Torok: well said, Claude!
[10:49] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: when stui loves me ill be happy
[10:49] Arias Ahren: Yes Kas.
[10:50] Patroklus Murakami: that's why i chose to live here along with the chance to participate
[10:50] Tor Karlsvalt: Claude I like that
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: I wouldn't want to force anything on AA
[10:50] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: CDS is a real community, as real as sl can be. thats why I am here. since you asked.
[10:50] Kaseido Quandry: hey Stui!
[10:50] Arria Perreault: we are a collaborative community, Kas. I can tell you so many stories about the help I got here to start my activities
[10:50] Tor Karlsvalt: I do value the seurtiy in CDS.
[10:50] Arias Ahren: I as well cleo
[10:50] Mikelo Serevi: I assumed AA came because they wanted to
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I love myself
[10:50] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, that's *good* - that's what it should be
[10:50] Kaseido Quandry: is it still doing that?
[10:50] Tor Karlsvalt: But I think we are a little sort on the management side.
[10:51] Arria Perreault: when I came here, I was a real newby and I had a dream (virtual museum)
[10:51] Kaseido Quandry: and if not, is that a systemic flaw or a current leadership flaw, with all respect?
[10:51] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: arria
[10:51] Arria Perreault: I have learned everything here
[10:51] Arria Perreault: people have helped me
[10:51] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: when CDS is perfect Kas we can all log out. what fun would that be?
[10:51] Arria Perreault: in CDS, we can make things happen
[10:51] Kaseido Quandry: CLEO, nobody's asking for perfection, really
[10:51] Tor Karlsvalt: Yes, Arria, I really like that fact there are so many experienced builders etc
[10:52] Arria Perreault: even we don't make the things themselves
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that the biggest issue of the merger is the protection of important values of the life and shape of the two original groups
[10:52] Arria Perreault: this is CDS
[10:52] Solomon Mosely: oh, speaking of getting things done,
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: Stui, I think that's what we've come to
[10:52] Arria Perreault: and CDS is wonderful
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: we could undoubtedly do better but, this is our *second* life after all and we are dependent on volunteer effort
[10:52] Tor Karlsvalt: I think that can be preserved Stui.
[10:52] Arias Ahren: As chaoitic as it may seem it has been a sensible point of reference for me.
[10:52] Solomon Mosely: does only brian have a copy of the directory board?
[10:52] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: how or can AA survive as a culture within the confines of a true sl democracy?
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: and some people - on both sides - feel that fundamental values are being threatened by the other party
[10:52] Kaseido Quandry: and some don't
[10:52] Arias Ahren: Why not, Cleo?
[10:53] Tor Karlsvalt: We can be the same and different together.
[10:53] Arria Perreault: I am sure that AA would benefit to be a part of CDS
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think that the other big issue is the fact that there is a definite inability for one side to see the other as a partner
[10:53] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it was a rhetorical question
[10:53] Claude Desmoulins: Kas, keep in mind that the documents you are researching only exist because a system developed that valued their creation and preservation.
[10:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Can we also list what 'fundamental values' are those?
[10:53] Kaseido Quandry: and CLEO, the monumental arrogance that leads you to say that CDS is the one true democracy, is a *wonderful* reason to leave
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: if the EU manages to stay together, welll. how come we cant?
[10:53] Arias Ahren: Frought with emotions stui
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and well if there is to be a future to any merger as we have previously discussed... the two groups would have to be broken up
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami: is there another democracy in SL kas?
[10:53] Claude Desmoulins: The fact that CDS has a documented continuity contributes to my sense of immersion
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and remade
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: Cus the EU has the eurro
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: under an equal footing
[10:54] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: ARe you saying I am wrong that CDS is the only surviving democracy in an early linden experiment? am I?
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: with protected interests
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: UK and other states are not in the euro tor
[10:54] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, I'd say yes - but I think you and I define the term differently
[10:54] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: History Gwyen?
[10:54] StuiChicanne Darkstone: rather as a rebranding of the concept
[10:54] Tor Karlsvalt: BTW, there is a third possibility.
[10:54] Patroklus Murakami: i'm not aware of any kas
[10:55] Kaseido Quandry: Chilbo should meet even your definition, yes?
[10:55] Solomon Mosely: there's other democracies in sl
[10:55] Tor Karlsvalt: The merge can not go forward, but the two sims could stay connected.
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: for it's became clear that neither AA or CDS will give to the other in a way that is mutually acceptable
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: and i keep a lookout for things like that
[10:55] Imotali Antiesse: (Thanks Stui - always bring some senses)
[10:55] Arria Perreault: Kas, do you see any problem for AA to stay and be a part of CDS like the roman sims or the Alpine sims?
[10:55] Patroklus Murakami: i think you are out on a limb stui. most ppl have not put it so starkly.
[10:55] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I don't believe that the voters could vote with confidence at present
[10:55] Pip Torok: isnt Cedar Island a democracy?
[10:55] Kaseido Quandry: Arria, I'm not sure.
[10:56] Arria Perreault: why?
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: I'm just not sure -
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I speak plainly
[10:56] Arria Perreault: I am sure of that
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I am not out on a limb
[10:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: but ceadar Island is not part of the experiment that came CDS
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: because there are people here who are saying "my way or the highway"
[10:56] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: it was CDS citizens who built it
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: cedar - possibly. i'm not sure i see 'consensus decision-making' as democracy
[10:56] Arria Perreault: I am sure AA would benefit from this
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I speak what people have said to me and share the common views
[10:56] Mikelo Serevi: which people, kas?
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: and who reject compromise
[10:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I air the general feeling
[10:56] Patroklus Murakami: why can't they speak for themsleves stui?
[10:56] Arria Perreault: we have all structures and processes needed for that and also all the competencies
[10:56] Kaseido Quandry: Cleo has said that, Arria has said that. Perhaps others - it's been a busy chat
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: tell us what you think, not what other anonymous ppl thing
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: consider me a distillate
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: and if they speak for CDS, that compromise is impossible,
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: hearsay is no use to us
[10:57] Mikelo Serevi: I didn't get that impression, kas
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I am a representative like you Pat
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: then no, I don't think there's room for AA here.
[10:57] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you could say we speak for the multitude
[10:57] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: i speak ONLY for me.. make no mistake
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: i did mike
[10:57] Solomon Mosely: clearly
[10:57] Claude Desmoulins: Kas, rather than my way or the highway some in CDS my self included...
[10:57] Arria Perreault: I think AA sould define its goal first
[10:57] Kaseido Quandry: otherwise, I'm inclined to agree with Gywn - that there's enough value in the model, that the merger is a good thing
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: well, we have had some clarity today on what 'the beef' is. i'd be interested to hear more specifics if you have them stui
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AP the goal is apparent
[10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: I tihnk AA had defined its goal.
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we have been active for some time
[10:58] Arria Perreault: tell it
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: working towards it
[10:58] Tor Karlsvalt: Pat articulated it earlier.
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's alarming that reps don't know it
[10:58] Claude Desmoulins: ...need to be reassured that whatever we end up with is transparent, provides checks on individal power and provides a mechanism for succession and sustainability.
[10:58] Solomon Mosely: as ra, its stu's job to speak for the anoymous
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's for appreciation of cultural diversity
[10:58] Arria Perreault: I mean the goal of the AA community
[10:58] Lilith Ivory: you can´t force people to speak if they ont want pat
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and to find common ground between faiths
[10:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to learn
[10:59] Tor Karlsvalt: Gain mangement for the sim, allow for some sort of succession of leadership
[10:59] Kaseido Quandry: *yes* Tor!
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat we are Reps
[10:59] Mikelo Serevi: If people don't want to speak, that's fine, but let's not invoke them then
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: if we don't speak for people
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: what is our purpose ?
[10:59] Kaseido Quandry: woot, Stui!
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: to speak for ourselves only ?
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: true lilith, but i think that adults should speak up for themselves and not behind others coattails. this speaking for anonymous ppl infantilises them
[10:59] Lilith Ivory: yes Stui
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you are a rep
[10:59] Patroklus Murakami: it's also untransparent and unverifiable
[10:59] Lilith Ivory: don´t you speak for your faction also?
[10:59] StuiChicanne Darkstone: you represent people
[10:59] Solomon Mosely: some people arent comfortable speaking publicly
[11:00] Kaseido Quandry: Pat, not everyone sees this sort of debate as good wholesome entertainment
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: stui tells us he speaks for others, but we have not way of checking
[11:00] Solomon Mosely: especially if they feel threatened
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's the meaning of our position
[11:00] Kaseido Quandry: yes, Solomon!
[11:00] Patroklus Murakami: he could be making it all up. i'm sure he's not
[11:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat
[11:00] CLEOPATRA Xigalia: do we need armys yet, cos i have some good armor
[11:00] Kaseido Quandry: that's the only good reason for *having* representatives