RA Meeting 21 March 2010: Transcript - Part 2

[mikeloserevi]

[10:39] Arria Perreault: Patroklus, when Stui is finished
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we'll have to check on the history of the area in RL on account the name given is unrelated to the era of C13th
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and also we may need to check there was not prior designs for the land
[10:40] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account it could form a source of discontent with the AA citizens
[10:40] Tor Karlsvalt: <<<<<raises his hand
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and CDS can't really annoy the AA citizens pre wasp vote
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or they might find it bites them in the bum
[10:41] StuiChicanne Darkstone: done
[10:41] Arria Perreault: (Pat first, Tor)
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: well, as i understand it, we have an empty homestead sim currently which could be developed. and we also have a waiting list for land
[10:41] Patroklus Murakami: so developing sacromonte sim makes sense to me
[10:41] Mikelo Serevi nods
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: i get the impression some ppl are opposed to that, but i don't really follow why. perhaps that could be made clear?
[10:42] StuiChicanne Darkstone: pat name the names and I'll ask them
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: if we want to go ahead, there is a way we can do so. posted on this on the forums here
[10:42] Patroklus Murakami: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2762
[10:43] Arria Perreault: If I can say something about pre-wasp vote, developing such a project is a long process regarding the in-them developmnt act
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: we would need to give a rough plan to the New Guild and then get them to produce a plan for us
[10:43] Arria Perreault: all these questions had to be answered:
[10:43] Pip Torok: agree
[10:43] Arria Perreault: (i) the rough number of plots (ii) the range of sizes of plots (iii) price and affordability (iv) single/double prim (v) rough balance between public, private and commercial land (vi) any specific public builds e.g. the ampitheatre (vii) any other infrastructure that can serve the interest of the community and territory
[10:43] Patroklus Murakami: as this is a unique sim, one of the Al Andalus estate, we should add extra conditions to make sure it fits
[10:43] Arria Perreault: so it will take a ter, I think
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: stui. do you know who is opposed to developing sacromonte?
[10:44] Arria Perreault: and the development can start after the wasp vote
[10:44] Patroklus Murakami: hold on a minute arria!
[10:45] Arria Perreault: ok
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: why would we wait until june? in the meantime the sim is empty and costing us tier. i don't think that makes sense
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it is prepaid
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: that's all from me for now
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: as Lil said
[10:45] Mikelo Serevi: Is it about $200/mo usd?
[10:45] Arria Perreault: Lilith said it was prepaid
[10:45] Patroklus Murakami: prepaid by who until when?
[10:45] StuiChicanne Darkstone: so it's not costing CDS anything
[10:45] Lilith Ivory: as far as I know
[10:45] Pip Torok: it makes sense if we dont know the result of wasp
[10:45] Lilith Ivory: but I´m not the exec
[10:46] Arria Perreault: maybe we have to look this: prepaid by who
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: my point is that you can't make a permanent fix that AA would have to spend too long rectifying should they choose to demerge
[10:46] Patroklus Murakami: well, lilith does not seem 100% certain on this point
[10:46] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well then we should table discussion until such things can be ascertained
[10:47] Lilith Ivory: where are the ones who can tell us?
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or risk wasting RA time
[10:47] Arria Perreault: making sure the person who paid doesnt change his mind ...
[10:47] Mikelo Serevi: on the other hand, stui, most of the waiting citizens are AA, right?
[10:47] Patroklus Murakami: so, we should proceed on the basis that we are going to demerge? that's not very positive!
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: which could be spent on a legitimate and constructive discussion point
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just 4, and the last time I heard about it, they had specific sims in mind
[10:47] Arria Perreault: yes, I think the waiting list is the main issue
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat I said "should"
[10:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... which we don't know about
[10:47] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I said a temp measure would be more pragmatic
[10:47] Arias Ahren: Raises hand
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: on account that it's not yet confirmed CDS land
[10:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand* too... after Arias...
[10:48] Lilith Ivory: we still know treeibly less about the situation in Sacromonte
[10:48] Pip Torok: Pat ... if we just don't know ... what do we do iyo
[10:48] Arria Perreault: now I will give the floor to the citizen
[10:48] Arria Perreault: Tor and then Arias
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: in which case RA can't realistically make the judgement that AA would have to sort out post vote should they demerge
[10:48] Patroklus Murakami: but it *is* CDS land according to the terms of the merger
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt: thanks
[10:48] Tor Karlsvalt: just want wanted to point out that I think there is some support for a Gibraltar theme for Sacromante. I was in a private conversation on this some time ago with several AA residents. Perhaps this is no longer still valid but just wanted to enter it in the record.
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I do wish you would stick to what I say not the interpretation that suits you to run with
[10:48] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it'd make this simpler
[10:49] Pip Torok: but the merger isnt the merger till after wasp
[10:49] Arria Perreault: thank you, Tor
[10:49] Arria Perreault: Arias
[10:49] Arias Ahren: Recently Rose told me that it was prepaid untill July, I believe.
[10:49] DeliaLake Beaumont: that is my understanding also Arias
[10:50] Arria Perreault: it gives us time
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat I counsel you to consider your stance on account that AA vote on demerging and to be too ready to take decisions without adequate research could suggest a want of care for their opinions
[10:50] Arria Perreault: we need to find a solution for the people of the wainting list
[10:50] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I have no issue with a temporary solution
[10:51] Patroklus Murakami: this proposal is supported by Al Andalus residents. don't they get a voice as well?
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: or a one that takes into account the considerations of AA
[10:51] Pip Torok: and why dont we _know_ the number of those waiting?
[10:51] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Pat have I ever done anything against the people of AA ?
[10:51] Arria Perreault: in the forum, it was said 4 people
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: stui, AA citizens residents supported this idea at the town hall meeting
[10:52] Pip Torok: ah ... and must plots for those 4 be in AA?
[10:52] Arias Ahren: Raises hand
[10:52] Patroklus Murakami: why do their views not count too? can you say you speak for everyone in AA on this?
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: right now we have partial info
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: at the meeting
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we had partial info
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: discussion now is rather pointless
[10:52] Mikelo Serevi: I think we're acting in good faith here
[10:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: how can you make a discussion without facts ?
[10:53] Mikelo Serevi: If AA residents don't want the plots, they won't buy them
[10:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: do we cook cakes without ingredients ?
[10:53] Solomon Mosely: i gotta run. thanks all, see you soon
[10:53] Pip Torok: see ya sol
[10:53] Arias Ahren: Raises hand.
[10:53] Patroklus Murakami wants to hear arias' view
[10:53] Arias Ahren: Thank you
[10:54] Arias Ahren: I am a resident of AA
[10:54] Arria Perreault: yes, Aria
[10:54] Arias Ahren: I think most residents of AA would like to see sacromonte developed
[10:54] Arias Ahren: Concerns are over the merger
[10:54] Arias Ahren: And the incomplete nature of Al garanata
[10:55] Arias Ahren: Finished
[10:55] Arria Perreault: what is the incomplete nature of Al Garnata?
[10:55] Arias Ahren: The status of the library and the theater
[10:56] Lilith Ivory: ...end the exhibition hall
[10:56] Arias Ahren: Plus an undeveloped section for galleries
[10:56] Lilith Ivory: and
[10:56] Lilith Ivory: yes
[10:56] Arias Ahren: Everthing around the square is in a state of flux
[10:56] Arria Perreault: I think it is not a bad idea to start a project
[10:57] Arias Ahren: I don't disagree with you arria
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: surely we could ask the New Guild to consider the development of the sim, ensure involvement from AA residents, and come back with some proposals?
[10:57] Arias Ahren: but is it a bit premature?
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: *of sacromonte
[10:57] Arias Ahren: Yes
[10:57] Arria Perreault: it's a long process, Arias
[10:57] Arias Ahren: I can imagine
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: it does not commit us to anything
[10:57] Arria Perreault: the Monastery sim, a homestead sim, took more than one year
[10:57] DeliaLake Beaumont *raises her hand*
[10:57] Patroklus Murakami: and it starts the groundwork
[10:58] Arria Perreault: Delia, you have the floor
[10:58] Patroklus Murakami: i don't think everything should be frozen until june!
[10:58] Mikelo Serevi agrees with pat
[10:58] Arria Perreault: we let Delia talk
[10:58] DeliaLake Beaumont: i am a neighbor of the Sacramonte sim. I would like to see it developed. I am getting a bit confused by this discussion
[10:59] DeliaLake Beaumont: what Pat has suggested is how the other sims have been developed
[10:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn is confused too and waits for her slot in the queue...
[10:59] Arria Perreault: (ok Gwyn)
[10:59] Sonja Strom has raised her and also
[10:59] Sonja Strom: *hand
[10:59] Arria Perreault: (after Delia)
[10:59] DeliaLake Beaumont: the New Guild considers ideas, and the ones that seem to have merit have models made for people to look at
[10:59] Arria Perreault: (and than Sonja)
[11:00] DeliaLake Beaumont: there is no overall decision before all that is done
[11:00] DeliaLake Beaumont: and sometimes it is decided not to proceed. why would this be different?
[11:01] Arria Perreault: I think the RA starts the project, not the Guild
[11:01] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, you have the floor
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* — the RA just hands the project over to the Guild for discussion, but it's the RA that kickstarts it
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ok...
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you — I would think that the main issue here is the "state of confusion". I would like to propose the following issues, to be implemented ASAP: 1) That an official waiting list for citizens is actually compiled by the Executive, and has at least the following data: resident name; what size; what theme they're interested in; date they entered the waiting list.
[11:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /raise-hand-stop
[11:01] DeliaLake Beaumont: the RA starts in the sense of purchasing a sim or not but this sim exists
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ops sorry hehe
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right, Delia!
[11:02] Arria Perreault: well .. I think the RA can also ask the Guild for redesign
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway... well before that... I would really like to see the waiting list made public, and overseen by the Executive
[11:02] Arria Perreault: it happened already
[11:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It can be posted on the forums, for now.
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or wherever the Executive feels it's best
[11:03] Arria Perreault: the Guild were asked to redesign some parcels in CN and in AM
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The names can be anonymous... so long as the Executive knows the,
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *them
[11:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I would like facts to back up the development too
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Also... there ought to be 2 types of "lists",
[11:03] Timo Gufler: somehow this project is special, because decision of the sim wasn't made in RA
[11:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one for "contacts" — residents actually interested in a plot
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the other for "Prospects" — residents willing to "reserve a plot" (by, say, paying a small amount of a fee)
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would at least give us some *data*
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And not wild speculation.
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are also residents waiting for plots on NFS
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Sylivia Tinkel, for instance
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then...
[11:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thankyou GL
[11:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) We (and that's the CDS) as a whole,
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *need* to know what is supposed to be done, not based on speculation
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Besides Sacromonte,
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: there is also the sim just referred by Rose as "Delia's sim"
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: which Rose inferred to be more prioritary to develop
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok.
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So...
[11:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We NEED to have a list
[11:05] Arria Perreault: good idea, Gwyn
[11:06] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Agrees with GL
[11:06] DeliaLake Beaumont: "Delia's" sim is Albaycin Nature Preserve
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of all things that the RA is supposed to do about. I suggest that the AA residents compile that and forward it to us
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, Delia!)
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We also have something like the "Merchant Quarter" in Altenstadt in NFS, which has a "confusing" status
[11:06] Arria Perreault: I give the floor to Sonja and then we come back to your proposal
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's supposed to have plots...
[11:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... wait... point 3 first ))
[11:06] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:06] Arria Perreault: sorry
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) A good point was made,
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: that the "equivalent" role of the New Guild in the AA sims,
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: has been given to Satir DeCuir
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I propose, thus, that Satir is given a special status somehow
[11:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Either she becomes a member of the NG too (we can't force her!)
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or all AA development requires her "stamp of approval", at least until July
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would ease the mind of some AA citizens who are concerned that the aesthetical considerations of teh AA sims might be possibly misinterpreted by the New Guild.
[11:08] Arria Perreault: thank you, Gwyn
[11:08] Arias Ahren: Raises hand
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And... yes, there is a point 4!
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (sorry!)
[11:08] Arria Perreault:
[11:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4) Due to special role of Rose Springvale in the AA,
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who is "more than an Estate Owner",
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: until July at least, even though this is not written on any of the documents pertaining to the merger,
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would seriously recommend that all development in the AA
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: at least has her participating formally in the meetings,
[11:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or at the very very least that she gets a formal invite — if she declines, it's up to her.
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's pretty much it. 4 motions on the table
[11:10] DeliaLake Beaumont has an urgent comment. Delia Lake is the developer/builder for the AA Albaycin sim. Satir has been the main builder but not the exclusive builder, on the other AA sims
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thank you, and sorry for taking so much time.
[11:10] Arria Perreault: SOnja, you have the floor
[11:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (ok, Delia — I'd happy to amend the motion to include your comment re: Albaycin)
[11:10] Sonja Strom: Thank you
[11:10] DeliaLake Beaumont: ty
[11:11] Arria Perreault: (and then we come back to Gwyn's motion)
[11:11] Sonja Strom: I would like to talk about a few subjects in relation to this - -
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (motions* plural!)
[11:11] Sonja Strom: Compilation of a "CDS land waiting list" is a very good idea, and I will begin working on it.
[11:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (thanks, Sonja )
[11:11] Sonja Strom: I have already been in conversation with some people regarding what they would like to do,
[11:11] Sonja Strom: so can easily begin the list with them.
[11:11] Sonja Strom: If any of you know people who would like to have land they do not have currently,
[11:12] Sonja Strom: please let me know,
[11:12] Sonja Strom: or have them contact me personally,
[11:12] Sonja Strom: and I will add them to this Waiting List.
[11:12] Sonja Strom: For now I will also keep this list confidential.
[11:13] Sonja Strom: With regard to six months of tier having been paid:
[11:13] Sonja Strom: it is my understanding
[11:13] Sonja Strom: that all of the sims of the Al Andalus area are owned by a not-for-profit corporation
[11:14] Sonja Strom: with their estate owner (Rose) as its representative
[11:14] Sonja Strom: and that therefore they all have an official nonprofit status with Linden Lab.
[11:14] Sonja Strom: When sims have this status,
[11:15] Sonja Strom: their estate owner must pay their tier to Linden Lab once every six months.
[11:15] Sonja Strom: This *estate* tier payment was last made on behalf of the CDS around a month ago,
[11:15] DeliaLake Beaumont: that is true. Micael and I in our rl versions are directors of that nonprofit
[11:15] Sonja Strom: and will next be paid this summer.
[11:15] Sonja Strom: Thank you Delia
[11:16] Sonja Strom: So, it makes sense that Rose would have said the tier is paid for the next six months,
[11:16] Sonja Strom: but, that said,
[11:16] Sonja Strom: whether the *land* tier has been paid to the estate owner or not I do not know.
[11:17] Sonja Strom: With regard to what the community could do with Sacromonte:
[11:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (actually, you just need to pay 6 months in advance if you wish LL to invoice you first before paying; if you don't care about the invoice first [but are happy to get it after payment], you can pay it every month)
[11:18] Sonja Strom: ah, very good to know Gwyneth, thank you for this clarification.
[11:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (see http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_ ... econd_Life )
[11:18] Sonja Strom: So far as I know there are no individual landowners on the sim of Sacromonte,
[11:18] Patroklus Murakami raises hand
[11:18] Sonja Strom: so all of the land there could be sold
[11:18] Sonja Strom: and/or developed in some way.
[11:18] Arria Perreault: (when SOnja is done, Pat)
[11:18] Sonja Strom: Two requests have come to me in regard to Sacromonte.
[11:18] Sonja Strom: One request is:
[11:18] Sonja Strom: for discussions with regard to land use planning in the AA sims to be postponed
[11:19] Sonja Strom: until the estate owner can let the RA know more information.
[11:19] Sonja Strom: The second request is:
[11:19] Sonja Strom: for all of the land on the sim of Sacromonte to be sold to one individual,
[11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: bloody hell that person must be rich
[11:20] Sonja Strom: who wants to buy all of the land there (not the estate, so far as I know).
[11:20] Patroklus Murakami: so, there's a buyer already interested?
[11:20] Mikelo Serevi: Wouldn't that violate our land ownership limits, if the sim stayed at CDS land?
[11:20] Sonja Strom: I would like to bring this for consideration by the RA
[11:20] StuiChicanne Darkstone: the history mentioned gypsies that'd be one hell of a set of tarot cards
[11:20] Sonja Strom: yes Mikelo, partly for that reason....
[11:21] Arria Perreault: yes, Mikelo, I had the same question
[11:21] Sonja Strom: in my understanding,
[11:21] Sonja Strom: normally there are limitations in the CDS
[11:21] Mikelo Serevi: Unless we simply sold the sim off
[11:21] Sonja Strom: on how much of a sim one individual may own.
[11:21] Arria Perreault: in one sim
[11:21] StuiChicanne Darkstone: "cross my palm with silver... I have tier next month"
[11:21] Sonja Strom: Perhaps in this case an exception could be made to this regulation.
[11:21] Lilith Ivory: wasn´t sacromonte owned by one person before?
[11:21] Sonja Strom: Thank you for your consideration.
[11:22] DeliaLake Beaumont: yes, Lilith
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh good points, Sonja...
[11:22] Mikelo Serevi: I had thought it was 4048M total per citizen in all CDS
[11:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4096 m2, yes
[11:22] Lilith Ivory: wasn´t that per Sim?
[11:22] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'll get my tarot cards out
[11:23] Arria Perreault: in all CDS or in one sim?
[11:23] Tor Karlsvalt: in one sim
[11:23] Lilith Ivory: /is relieved
[11:23] Tor Karlsvalt: some already own more than 4096 in CDS
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one sim — http://portal.slcds.info/index.php?id=184 for the covenant in NFS
[11:23] Mikelo Serevi: ok
[11:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but other sims have slightly different covenants
[11:23] Timo Gufler: what if the parcels in a sim are bigger than 4096 m²?
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: maybe I can sell cake to buy Sacromonte
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The Covenant would be different then, Timo
[11:24] Tor Karlsvalt: don't think they are
[11:24] Timo Gufler: sure
[11:24] DeliaLake Beaumont: so already we have a sim by sim covenant
[11:24] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Timo you will buy some cake ?
[11:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Delia
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: arria, may I?
[11:24] Timo Gufler: Stui: I ate already, thanks
[11:24] Arria Perreault: yes
[11:24] Arria Perreault: Patroklus
[11:24] Patroklus Murakami: thanks sonja, that additional information is very useful
[11:25] Sonja Strom:
[11:25] Patroklus Murakami: i am somewhat uncomfortable with suggestions that we should 'wait until june' and set special conditions both for individuals to have veto power over CDS projects and/or sell whole sims to individuals
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: i prefer the democratic, collaborative methods the CDS has used in teh past to develop sims and get more citizens to participate
[11:26] Patroklus Murakami: so, my preference would be to develop sacromonte in the way we have before via the In Theme Development Act
[11:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: well I as a former AA citizen, could say I am troubled by the thought that CDS would make a choice about AA before june
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: that being said, sonja's contribution brings in new information, so i won't make that proposal right now
[11:27] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's swings and roundabouts
[11:27] Arria Perreault: thank you Pat,
[11:27] Mikelo Serevi: My understanding was that AA was already a part of CDS
[11:27] Patroklus Murakami: why are we discussing citizenship then stui?
[11:27] Arria Perreault: now we have to come back to Gwyn's motion
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: that changes things for all of us, and we are doing that before june!
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: good question Pat
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps we should just suspend RA meetings until june?
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: because it was at the suggestion of someone else
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: is that a motion ?
[11:28] Patroklus Murakami: no!
[11:28] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I thought not
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree with you in principle, Pat, to be honest; but I also fear that we lose some pragmatism that way. In truth, we can't predict if the AA sims are gone by July or not, and "pressing" to keep the letter of the law (which, indeed, allows the CDS to do whatever they please with *all sims*) might be just give an excellent excuse for the merger NOT to be approved by the AA citizens...
[11:29] Patroklus Murakami: it would be unconstitutional
[11:29] Arria Perreault: we have the motions of Gwn
[11:29] StuiChicanne Darkstone: action is not normally so easily explained
[11:29] Patroklus Murakami: i think the wishes of AA citizens who want to see sacromonte developed are not being respected
[11:29] Mikelo Serevi: Could gwyn make the motions one at a time so we can vote on them?
[11:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, sure, Mikelo! Let me just scroll back...
[11:30] Arria Perreault: yes, but I want to say something
[11:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn will prepare the list of motions while Arria speaks hehe
[11:30] Arria Perreault: first this raw field in CDS landscape seems a bit strange
[11:31] Arria Perreault: then we have to discuss this issue of the limitation of land owning by sim
[11:31] Arria Perreault: we should have a similar rule everywhere, for equality reasons
[11:31] Timo Gufler: maybe we could have something temporary there until further plans are decided
[11:32] Arria Perreault: than I saw this project a something challenging for our community
[11:32] Arria Perreault: if we work all to this development, it will make us closer
[11:32] Arria Perreault: it seems that many people wan tto see this sim developed
[11:33] Arria Perreault: and there is a waiting lidt
[11:33] Arria Perreault: list*
[11:34] Arria Perreault: I think we need to set all the information together and invite all the involved people
[11:34] Lilith Ivory nods
[11:34] Arias Ahren: Agree
[11:35] Arria Perreault: before to ask the Guild to make a project, we could ask the Guild to bring all this information together
[11:35] Arria Perreault: hte Guild is neutral
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: guild and builders of AA surely
[11:35] Arria Perreault: and can easely bring different people to the same table
[11:35] Patroklus Murakami: the guild is open to all stui
[11:35] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all the textures will be with Satir
[11:35] Arria Perreault: yes, Stui, all together
[11:36] Lilith Ivory: whenever the guild wakes up again everybody is welcome
[11:37] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Satir the celebrity builder in heels
[11:37] Arria Perreault: it would be my proposal: to ask the Guild to make a feasibility study about Sacromonte
[11:38] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, ar you ready?
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami: can we vote on them as a package?
[11:39] Patroklus Murakami can't face four votes, we'll be here till midday!
[11:39] Arria Perreault: (I hope)
[11:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (2 minutes, guys... sorry...)
[11:39] Mikelo Serevi: np gwyn
[11:41] Arria Perreault: (after this vote, I will make an interesting motion: postpone all the rest and adjourn )
[11:41] Pip Torok leaps for joy
[11:41] Consuela Caldwell gave you crossworlds gallery, Consuela's show.
[11:41] Arria Perreault:
[11:41] Tor Karlsvalt: don't need to open that for citizen comment
[11:41] Consuela Caldwell gave you Beyondred Art, Mul (115, 16, 1252).
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ready? hehe
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) a) That an official waiting list for future citizens is compiled by the Executive, and has at least the following data: resident name; what size; what theme they're interested in; date they entered the waiting list; the list might be made public by the Executive in any matter that seems best (and actual avatar names might remain anonymous if they wish).
b) A second list to be created for potential citizens that have actually paid a fee (to be determined by the Executive) to do a pre-reservation on pl
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ots on specific sims or themes.
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Motion for the Executive to gather a list of all pending issues on Sacromonte, Albaycin, and other sims, by consultation with AA residents, to be presented at the RA for taking appropriate measures (including, but not limited to, engaging in planning activities)
[11:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Due to the historical role of Satir DeCuir as overseer that the AA sims remain an aesthetical unity, I propose that she is formally invited to any planning meetings that are held to discuss building or re-building of any of the AA sims (except for AA Albaycin, where this invitation is to be sent to Delia Lake), until July.
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4) Due to special role of Rose Springvale in the AA, who represents Virtual Democracy Inc., the non-profit organisation that owns the AA sims, I propose that, until July at least, even though this is not written on any of the documents pertaining to the merger, all development in the AA at least formally invites Rose Sprinvalle to participate in the development meetings (either at the New Guild or elsewhere).
[Comment: points 3 and 4 have as sunset clause the same day the AA residents vote on the merger
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to go through]
[11:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that's it... with slight amendments as the dicussion progressed...
[11:43] Mikelo Serevi: Can we amend this so that these list won't be legally required to be exhaustive?
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: I don't see how anyone can find out for sure who wants land
[11:44] Arria Perreault: youcan propose amendments, yes
[11:44] Mikelo Serevi: ot find everything that "needs to be done"
[11:44] Patroklus Murakami: point of information, the wasp clause does not include a requirement for AA citizens to vote on anything
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, in the sense that if someone wishes to buy a plot and is not on the list, they aren't not "left out"? I totally agree, Mikelo!!!
[11:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Pat — you're quite right
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: No, I mean, sonja can't include them if they dont speak up
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and sorry for the bad grammar)
[11:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah!
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: and what is "everything that needs to be done?"
[11:45] Mikelo Serevi: That's an impossible list
[11:45] Patroklus Murakami: it's entirely at the discetion of the AA EO. so that should be amended to 'the day after the AA EO has had the option to nullify the merger'
[11:46] Arria Perreault: I remind you you need a seconded motion to change something in the motion
[11:47] Arria Perreault: or Gwyn can change her text
[11:47] Arria Perreault: afeter the discussion and paste it again
[11:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, I suggest that 1) c) reads: "These lists won't be legally required to be exhaustive, but we expect the Executive to do their best effort to compile the lists as complete as possible" or soemthing like that
[11:47] Arias Ahren: I must take my leave
[11:48] Arias Ahren: Good speed with all of this
[11:48] Pip Torok: tku!
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm definitely accepting Mikelo's change... hehe
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So Pat, where do you want to put yours?
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: How do you feel about that, sonja?
[11:48] Mikelo Serevi: thx gwyn
[11:48] Patroklus Murakami: change [Comment: points 3 and 4 have as sunset clause the same day the AA residents vote on the merger
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The comment is wrongly written! The AA residents are not required to vote to *stay*
[11:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Agreed
[11:49] Mikelo Serevi: second, pat
[11:49] Patroklus Murakami: "the day after the AA EO has had the option to nullify the merger"
[11:49] Arria Perreault: other changes?
[11:50] Arria Perreault: Gwyn, can you copy paste the text again?
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn fixed a typo or two, too
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok!
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1) a) That an official waiting list for future citizens is compiled by the Executive, and has at least the following data: resident name; what size; what theme they're interested in; date they entered the waiting list; the list might be made public by the Executive in any matter that seems best (and actual avatar names might remain anonymous if they wish).
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) A second list to be created for potential citizens that have actually paid a fee (to be determined by the Executive) to do a pre-reservation on plots on specific sims or themes.
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: c) These lists are not legally required to be exhaustive, but we expect the Executive to do their best effort to compile the lists to be as complete as possible.
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 2) Motion for the Executive to gather a list of all pending issues on Sacromonte, Albaycin, and other sims, by consultation with AA residents, to be presented at the RA for taking appropriate measures (including, but not limited to, engaging in planning activities)
[11:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 3) Due to the historical role of Satir DeCuir as overseer that the AA sims remain an aesthetical unity, I propose that she is formally invited to any planning meetings that are held to discuss building or re-building of any of the AA sims (except for AA Albaycin, where this invitation is to be sent to Delia Lake), until July.
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 4) Due to special role of Rose Springvale in the AA, who represents Virtual Democracy Inc., the non-profit organisation that owns the AA sims, I propose that, until July at least, even though this is not written on any of the documents pertaining to the merger, all development in the AA at least formally invites Rose Springvale to participate in the development meetings (either at the New Guild or elsewhere).
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: [Comment: points 3 and 4 have as sunset clause the day after the AA EO has had the option to nullify the merger].
[11:51] Arria Perreault: thank you
[11:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now that I read that, Pat... the AA citizens *can* vote to nullify the merger, but I don't know if they can actually override Rose
[11:52] Patroklus Murakami: not according to the terms of the merger. though i expect a democratic process and input will be involved
[11:52] Mikelo Serevi: I feel uncomfortable voting on all this at once
[11:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, I think we should vote on the 4 motions separately too
[11:52] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'm sure that Rose would do what was in the best interests of AA
[11:53] Lilith Ivory: right Stui
[11:53] Arria Perreault: ok
[11:53] Arria Perreault: 4 votes
[11:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: she cares for it too much to do any other
[11:53] Patroklus Murakami knocks gwyn round the head for putting forward 4 motions
[11:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and I would trust her to know what is best also
[11:53] StuiChicanne Darkstone: after all she's the reason AA is here these days
[11:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat, actually, these motions are not "Mine"... credit where credit's due... they come mostly from discussions with Stui and some other AA residents
[11:53] Arria Perreault: 1 motion
[11:54] Arria Perreault: we need a second for each
[11:54] Patroklus Murakami: i second the first motion
[11:54] Pip Torok: second
[11:54] Arria Perreault: the first motion is about the waiting list
[11:54] Arria Perreault: we vote
[11:54] Patroklus Murakami: aye
[11:54] Pip Torok: aye
[11:55] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[11:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye´
[11:56] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:56] Timo Gufler: aye
[11:56] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[11:56] StuiChicanne Darkstone: get info
[11:57] Arria Perreault: Caro?
[11:57] Arria Perreault: I vote aye
[11:57] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[11:57] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[11:58] StuiChicanne Darkstone: we always skip Caro
[11:58] Arria Perreault: 2nd motion
[11:58] Arria Perreault: list of all pending issues on Sacromonte, Albaycin, and other sims
[11:58] Pip Torok: second
[11:58] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[11:58] Pip Torok: aye
[11:58] Lilith Ivory: aye
[11:58] Mikelo Serevi: nay
[11:58] Timo Gufler: aey
[11:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[11:59] Imotali Antiesse: yes
[11:59] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[11:59] Arria Perreault: other votes
[11:59] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[12:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: now caro's voted I will
[12:00] StuiChicanne Darkstone: aye
[12:00] Arria Perreault: I say aye
[12:00] Mikelo Serevi: I just think it's a little too much work for sonja, though I think she may want to do some of it anyway
[12:00] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[12:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, Mikelo ))
[12:01] Arria Perreault: I agree, Mikelo, we give a lot of work to her
[12:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But Sonja can delegate
[12:01] Arria Perreault: motion 3
[12:01] StuiChicanne Darkstone: it's good for Sonja's learning about AA
[12:01] Arria Perreault: role of Satir DeCuir and Delia
[12:01] Mikelo Serevi: Well, ok then
[12:01] Pip Torok: second
[12:01] Arria Perreault: vote
[12:01] Timo Gufler: aye
[12:01] Mikelo Serevi: this is for both satir and rose to be included?
[12:01] Lilith Ivory: aye
[12:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Formally invited, yes
[12:02] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[12:02] Patroklus Murakami: no, motion 3 only
[12:02] Pip Torok: aye
[12:02] Imotali Antiesse: aye
[12:02] Arria Perreault: yes, Mikelo
[12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Sorry, only Satir (point 3)
[12:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Delia should be included too on account of Albaycin
[12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or Delia in teh case of Albaycin
[12:02] Patroklus Murakami: motion 3 is satir and delia
[12:02] Arria Perreault: for satir and delia, rose is in the next motion
[12:02] Arria Perreault: seh is, Stui
[12:02] StuiChicanne Darkstone: caro ?
[12:02] Patroklus Murakami: abstain
[12:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains on this one. Those meetings are public anyway, and announced in advance, let anyone attend them and discuss/argue whatever they please
[12:03] Imotali Antiesse: Just curious why Satir what about other builders?
[12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Satir worked on most of AA
[12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: there is Marino too
[12:03] Arria Perreault: other votes?
[12:03] StuiChicanne Darkstone: she's a founding citizen
[12:04] DeliaLake Beaumont: Marino did a number of the buildings on AA
[12:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I wait for Caro before voting
[12:04] Mikelo Serevi: I guess she was the alpha builder over there, de facto
[12:04] Carolyn Saarinen: satir built most of AA
[12:04] Mikelo Serevi: And it's lovely work
[12:04] Carolyn Saarinen: so aye
[12:04] Arria Perreault: Stui?
[12:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Satir was considered for special status in the AA citizenship commission btw
[12:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: Aye
[12:04] Arria Perreault: I abstain too
[12:04] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I think Pip can state that much is true
[12:05] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[12:05] Arria Perreault: motion 4
[12:05] Arria Perreault: role of Rose
[12:05] Arria Perreault: a second?
[12:05] Lilith Ivory: second
[12:05] Arria Perreault: vote
[12:05] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[12:05] Lilith Ivory: aye
[12:05] Patroklus Murakami: nay
[12:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains. Again, all the development planning will be conducted under a transparent,a ccountable fashion, like we always did, and Rose is quite welcome to participate whenever she wants.
[12:06] Carolyn Saarinen: aye
[12:06] Pip Torok: abstains
[12:06] Imotali Antiesse: i say, aye
[12:06] Timo Gufler: abstain
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I'd be hard pressed to understand a nay to this one so you can assume I say an emphatic AYE and that I wack a gavel with AYE printed on it onto the table before me
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: SO AYE !
[12:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE !
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE !
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and
[12:07] Patroklus Murakami: i'll explain it to you later stui
[12:07] Arria Perreault: Abstains
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: just for good measure
[12:07] StuiChicanne Darkstone: AYE
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: motion carries because it's common sense
[12:08] Patroklus Murakami: it has to do with objecting to 'special status' for some citizens. we are all equals
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: thankyou and good night
[12:08] Arria Perreault: 5 aye, 1 nay, 4 abst
[12:08] Mikelo Serevi: I'm sorry, were you for or against it, stui?
[12:08] Arria Perreault: motion carries
[12:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Mikelo!!!
[12:08] Patroklus Murakami: LOL!
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I was more than for it
[12:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[12:08] Arria Perreault: thank you
[12:08] Mikelo Serevi:
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: I got the flags out
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and jumped up and down
[12:08] StuiChicanne Darkstone: and threw cake everywhere
[12:09] Arria Perreault: I have a motion to postposne other topics and adjourn the meeting
[12:09] Mikelo Serevi: second
[12:09] Pip Torok: seconded
[12:09] Patroklus Murakami: honestly, do you wear protection while you sit on that fence stui? just kidding
[12:09] Arria Perreault: (and save my dinner..)
[12:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I hate to be a spoilsport... but we've been at this for 3 hours now... I know that points c,d,e are important... but I second the motion too
[12:09] Arria Perreault: vote
[12:09] Mikelo Serevi: aye
[12:09] Patroklus Murakami: i vote aye
[12:09] Arria Perreault: aye
[12:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: aye
[12:09] Lilith Ivory: aye
[12:09] Timo Gufler: aye
[12:09] Pip Torok: aye
[12:09] Imotali Antiesse: good for me, aye
[12:09] Tor Karlsvalt: and the SNOW is GONE!!!
[12:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wow, that was the quickest vote of the day ))))
[12:09] Lilith Ivory: yay!