CSDF General Meeting 24 August 3pm - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 24 August 3pm - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on [b:8mh84pwb]Thursday 24 August at 3pm[/b:8mh84pwb].

Location:[b:8mh84pwb] Pat's Country Home[/b:8mh84pwb] on the Lowland Road, (Neufreistadt 123, 33)

Please add suggested agenda items to my preliminary list by posting here.

[b:8mh84pwb]Agenda[/b:8mh84pwb]
1. Welcome to new members

2. Upcoming RA meeting
-Executive & Guild reform
-Ashcroft's Proposal for a Legal System
-Franchulate bill

3. CSDF Future Activities.
Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm
Location: Neufreistadt, Colonia Nova and Locus Amoenus and Locus Amoenus

CSDF General Meeting 24 August 3pm - Transcript 1/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Sienna:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Local-Position: (134, 9, 125)[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkGreen:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Meeting on 2006-08-24[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Those present[/b:3av0ncud]: [/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Also, there is an agenda on THE NEW GROUP TOOLS! yay, woot, and [insert explamatory supletive here][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: *exclamatory[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: pl touch the recorder to indicate consent ot be recorded for the transcript[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkOrange:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Aliasi Stonebender has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: yes, gwyn the new group tools are AWESOME![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: hehe I'm glad you like them as well :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: k, first item: new members. none this week! next item[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: haha[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: none *yet*... who knows... :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: lol[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: next is RA meeting. first the exec and jon's proposal[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: What happened with Ranma's request to join, btw?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i put the first version in the notecard[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: did ranma request membership?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: She told me that...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: oh right, well i'll IM her and ask if she's still interested[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: we need to decide how to use the new tools with membership[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i'll put together a proposal for next week[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: *next time[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: ok Pat[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, good idea.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: jon, would u like to talk to your amendment?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant listens[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami prods jon![/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Sure. I guess only those who are so far registered in the faction have received a copy of the[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn sleeps[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: ah. Sorry.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: And hello, Yoge![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: hi yoge[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: namaste Yoge :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: draft of the amendment by email.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Olive:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Yogeswari Padar[/b:3av0ncud]: hi gang[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Olive:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Yogeswari Padar[/b:3av0ncud]: sorry i'm late :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Hi Yoge![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Both Gwyn and Pat responded to the draft.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Olive:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Yogeswari Padar has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: that's right jon. but i've embedded the text in the agenda notecard[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Briefly in my case... hehe[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: ah- hah ? this notecard is "newer" than the one on the group tools![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: yes gywn :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Oh, something is not working.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: It's still called "Burgermeister Amendment" sooooo[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: I just saw two links[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: ?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: There are three in my notecard...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: if u click on th e link in the notecard. it should bring up the text of your amendment on a new one[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: three *links I mean.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i cut and pasted from the forums and emails[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, it is just giving me the text of the original that Justice proposed.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: there are two other links to ashcroft's latest draft and sudane's proposal[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Oh, yes edited.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: I see.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: k :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: hmmm, i see no link at all....[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, this is the *original* and not the proposed revisions.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: So, in the next draft we are planning to make at least two changes:[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: get the agend from the notecard giver moon. (and turn off busy so u can receive it!:))[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: 1. Change the term "Burgermiester" to Chancelor[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: lol, i did[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: yes jon[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: but it's allright now[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: 2. Add a preamble.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Moon has a draft of the preamble.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Excellent, Moon :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: afk again...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: The thrid question is a strategic one..[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: now then, tactics.. any need for further thoughts? do we see a dpuu proposal yet?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: er... have to paste it on a notecard, or email it still[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: that is do we want to press the issue of republic vs. confederacy in this proposal.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: sorry jon, go on[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: tricky :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: My understanding is that Justice's bill (not amanendment) is the DPU proposal.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Or at least the only one to emerge to date.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i think we should go for a republic exec at first and not concede the idea of execs for each sim unless we have to[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i think it's more difficult to go from one for each sim to an overall executive[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Pat, how are we conceding anything if we provide for an executive? No one has defined its scope as yet.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: we shouldn't conced the pont unless we have to. well, we'd be conceding the point about a unitary republic[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: It seems to me that the executive we establish now could become the executive of the republic.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Sorry, back.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, Moon crashed.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn is being so silly in RL right now that she's ashamed of telling you about it.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: And hmm[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: This meeting is not going well[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: ?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Gwyn?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Me leaving, Moon crashing...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: uh oh[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: ah[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Chat lag. Hmm.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: ah, i see[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: jon, how would your proposal transfrom into a republican exec? would it need a further CA?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Sorry, I need to scroll back on History for a bit, although it seems that Jon has just discussed the proposed amendments...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: ok... well,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: the way I see it,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: NFS is still a republic, *unless* things are changed,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Green:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ranma Tardis[/b:3av0ncud]: HI[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: hi ranma, come on in :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: wb moon[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Come in, Ranma, and welcome![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, Moon's back![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, Pat. It would. I think whatever we do we will require a new amendment to establish the status of CN[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Hi Ranma[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: back... hi gaain everyone[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Green:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Anyway... as said we're still a republic, and the "territory" of NFS is not "fixed" to a single sim ? deliberately so![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, Gwyn, it is. Thus this is the executive of the republic.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Soooo this proposal should be as neutral as possible, ie. for now, fitting into the *existing* system.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Indeed, Jon, there is no question about it ? *unless* the DPU wants to introduce talk about a Federation at this point.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: I like that idea.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: i like it :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: That's why it would be important to omit names of officers that are specifically tied to a sim's theme...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: You can always joke about it with Justice,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, I do agree with that.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: "Justice, surely you don't want the president of the galactic confederation to be called 'Burgermeister'?"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: He'll laugh,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: lol[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: lol[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: and probably agree on "head of government" or "head of the executive branch"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: HEB[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: hmm[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: more acronyms :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: heebie-jeebies![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: noooo HOTEB :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Well, I do like the term Chancelor. It does reflect a contemporary euopean theme and also might well apply to the galactic republic[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: do we need to discuss in any further?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Soo can we agree on that? That'll go back to Justice with a proposal to make the thing more 'neutral'?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: hi marcel. welcome :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Marcel, welcome[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: hi[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: The only thing to be discussed is if we want to suggest a *specific* name at this point.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: hi Marcel[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: are u real social democrats in r`?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: rl[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Moon and I will distribute a new draft by tomorrow morning with the proposed changes.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: hmmm, i am definetely .)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, Marcel, I am.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: lol Marcel ? no, we're actually fascist utopian communists and we eat children for breakfast :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Sorry ;)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: can only speadk for myself marcel, in RL i am a rabid socialist :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: gwyn, LOL[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: thats what i expected[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: hehe[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: gg[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Rudy Ruml calls me a "soft European social democrat"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet[/b:3av0ncud]: im too im from germany u?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: It's far better than what people have called me so far :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkOrange:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:3av0ncud]: I'm not with these guys. I'm just kind of here.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, why "soft"?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Teal:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Marcel Morellet has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: gwyn is *such* a centrist![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: shall we move on to the next item?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: In any case, do we agree on the path going forward with the amendment?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Jon, you can ask that to Rudy :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: And yes, I agree.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: yes, agreed[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: k, next ashcroft's judiciary bill. we are lucky enough to have the author on hand :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: feel free to pitch in to the discussion ashcroft[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Hello :-)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: It's a bit late for me, so I may have to vanish before terribly long...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: any comments on the proposal or the forum debate. i've said lots already[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: we lost moon again :([/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, she's been having troubles uploading textures, it crashes her computer somehow...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami notices it's gone v quiet[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: shhhhh![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Well hmm should we wait a bit for Moon?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, lets wait. She is trying to upload and keeps crashing[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Or should Ash talk a bit more about his proposal?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Well,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Pat, did you talk to Ash about our suggestion? :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: or look at the naked guy?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: aaah Moonie is back :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: He's clothed now :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: wb moon[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: back again[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Naked guys and moonies? ;-)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: some problems with texture uploads....[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: we have all the fun at CSDF meetings :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Always lively :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: ash and i did talk but there's been no meeting of minds as yet[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Who said that politics was boring? :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, Dianne might join us all in a bit as well...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ok,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: well Ash,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: on our last meeting here,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: knock knock[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Pat and I were suggesting that we adopted your system wholesale[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Dianne! Welcome :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: I think that the position was that Pat said he wasn't prepared to make any concessions on the logs point, and that he didn't have any reasons for rejecting my arguments either.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: I'm glad you managed to make an appearance, Dianne :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: come in dianne. good to see u again :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: hello all[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: mm hmm that as well, Ash[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: BIt I think that the conversation between Pat and I has been dominated by the logs...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: But, evne...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Sooo.... the idea... would be to adopt the system,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Even.. grr.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: as a "trial" so to speak....[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: hmm[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkRed:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Moon Adamant[/b:3av0ncud]: oh, hi Dianne :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Hi Dianne[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: Hi Moon , John :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Olive:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Yogeswari Padar[/b:3av0ncud]: hi dianne[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: I saw the suggestion for a "sunset" clause. In my view that would be disasterous, for all the reasons that I outlined on the forum.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: An alternative to presumed failure would be the Judiciary Review Panel idea, which would work if enough people were prepared to sit on it.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: mm hmm Ash[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: That would be basically our two choices.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: I mean, when proposing things at the RA level.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Either "let's go for it and work it out for a few months and then evaluate it properly"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: or "rediscuss, approve a lighetr version, fill in the details as time goes by"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: My personal feeling: we would take too much time to do a new discussion :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: The latter is not something that is compatible with judicial systems.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Say, a year :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: lol[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: heh[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Thanks Ashcroft ? actually, I do agree with you,m[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: I would like to ask a question.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: also, I'm somehow worried about "infinite postponements"... ie. sine die[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Excellent :-)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: For this new system, the only way we have of including someone under it is to have them agree to it.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Infinite postponements of what?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: What do you mean by "including someone under it"?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: In effect they will have to agree to the entire legal code when they decide to join.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Of the discussion of a legal system![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: True, Jon.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: They already do: there's a term in the existing ToS that states that they agree to be bound by all in-world laws.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: That is a lot to agree to. Might this help discorrage people from joining in that case?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: I strengthen that in my proposed amended ToS by providing an arbitration clause stating that they should be bound to resolve disputes in our internal courts.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Well, it's always been a condition, and nobody has been dissuaded so far.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: The whole point of Neufriestadt is that we are a functioning state.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ashcroft, I do not see how NStadt laws are automatically applied in that way. Can you explain?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: If people want anarchy, they're probably best somewhere else.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ashcroft is right on that... most people never read the +existing+ laws anyway when they join.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, I did.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: But Jon, you're special :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: There's a term in the existing ToS for Neufriestadt stating that people are bound by agreeing to the terms to observe all in-world laws.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Ashcroft[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: In effect the laws and constitution are a contract between a member and the consumer cooperative.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkOrange:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:3av0ncud]: ah, but as the famous sayng is, ignorance of the law is no excuse.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkOrange:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Aliasi Stonebender[/b:3av0ncud]: especially when we got a wiki with all of 'em and everything.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes - a social contract in the most literal sense![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Totally so, Aliasi.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: but what u r demanding is a fundamental change in the rules of the game[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: It's fascinating, actually.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Pat: are you on chatlogs again?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: fraid so[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: I think that we're on jurisdiction...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: :) :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ashcroft, but someone can decide not to join because the laws are too hard to understand and agree to.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: apologies, was dealing with naked guy[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: hehe at last, Pat ;)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Pat: I don't think that there's anything more to say about chatlogs unless and until you come up with some arguments that specifically address my arguments.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Just as they can now.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: hehe[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Well,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: In practice, I very much doubt that that'll stop anybody.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: But the laws are rather easy to read now..[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: And the sort of people that it will stop are unlikely to be the sort of people who we'll want to have anyway.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Laws that are easy to read are almost universally proportionately difficult to apply.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah well. The only argument against "too many laws for me to join",[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Oh, because I think it is a real world contract, someone would be making a mistake not to read them.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: is that sooner or later,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: we'll have "too many laws"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: That will happen, of course[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: when we have 500,000 citizens :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: and 10 or 20 years of Neufreistadt :D[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: This is an important point. We are not (just) a model city..[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: When we have 500,000 citizens, hopefully we'll have professional lawyers :-p[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: hi xantha, feel free to join us[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: We will, Ash, we will![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Hello Xantha, nice to see you again![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DimGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Xantha Oe[/b:3av0ncud]: hi all[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Hello :-)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: If I decide to buy land here, I have entered into an agreement that, as I understand it, can be considered a RL legal contract.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Olive:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Yogeswari Padar[/b:3av0ncud]: hi xantha[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Hmm[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: (With an arbitration clause that ensures that rights and duties thereunder are enforced exclusively in our courts)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: It is a NFS legal contract :) ... I cannot say more beyond that![/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: yes, like Ash said ? it's a contract under the jurisdiction of Neufreistadt,[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: I don't know how "binding" that would be outside our jurisdiction.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: this part seemed to be to be uncontroversial. that nfs should have jurisdiction over its citizens and those who choose to use our courts[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Ah, here is a scenario. For some reason N'Stadt takes my land and says "sorry, we wanted it"[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: *me to be[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ok...[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Navy:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3av0ncud]: but then jon u would have recourse thru the courts[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: I could then sue Sudane (sadly she is not protected) for breach of contract.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=SlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Dianne Mechanique[/b:3av0ncud]: any RL government can do that anyway[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][i:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn *squints*[/i:3av0ncud][/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: How would you sue *Sudane*....[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: Actually, it wouldn't be for breach of contract; it'd be for unlawful appropriation :-)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: It'd be unlawful by virtue of our takings clause.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: You cold sue *the City*, Jon.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DimGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Xantha Oe[/b:3av0ncud]: unclear how Neufreistadt can enforce contracts unless via sublease[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: That's exactly how we do it :-) And on pain of banishment.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Xantha ? we enforce them mostly because the City can claim back citizen's land[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: Yes, you see at least here, if two people agree on something and "shake hands", I will do X if you do Y, and some right or property was taken away, that is enough to have standaing.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: ... or money held in escrow as well, in the case of Neufreistadt-incorporated companies.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: But only with an order of the Court if my Bill becomes law :-)_[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Jon ? I'm missing your point :)[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: (I was answering Xantha's point..[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Blue:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:3av0ncud]: )[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=Indigo:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Jon Seattle[/b:3av0ncud]: What I am saying is that this legal code are the bylaws of the organization from a RL perspective.[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: What exactly is the issue?[/color:3av0ncud]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3av0ncud][b:3av0ncud]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3av0ncud]: Ok... but...[/color:3av0ncud]
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Patroklus Murakami
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Forum Wizard
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Location: Neufreistadt, Colonia Nova and Locus Amoenus and Locus Amoenus

CSDF General Meeting 24 August 3pm - Transcript 2/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, exactly: like the rules of a sport.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: we have established that the jurisdiction that applies is Neufreistadt's own,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: so while in theory you *could* sue Sudane on any other court (RL I mean)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I am trying to warn people that these are not just a model city's made up rules. Real property can be lost.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: that RL court would very likely not recognise the validity of your claims.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Exactly. That's precisely why we need a sophisticated judicial system.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, if you'd manage to convince that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: convince *a RL judge of that[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: No, you see a RL court would not consider any juristiction, they would just consider us a voluntary organization.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: and jon, real property can be lost now and on much shakier grounds. sudane can take my land back any time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The'd probably consider us a bunch of people who play a complicated computer game...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah. That was actually Ulrika's and Sudane's arguments, quite a while ago...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: But RL law does apply to voluntary organizatins.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, of course. Just as with sports :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: The question would be: "which RL law?" ;)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Pat, in theory you would have recourse in that case, as the organizarion violated its own bylaws.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But people don't go suing refarees (at least, not successfully) in actual courts when they disagree with their decisions, unless they're alledging that they're corrupt.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's what the arbitration clause that I propose is for :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, I think that Ashcroft is making a point.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I mean...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: *if* we have a sophisticated system working for Neufreistadt,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Red:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]wyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: there won't be "illegitimate" appropriation of property,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but fully documented cases pointing to the "whys" of appropriation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Now, one might agree that these documents would be mostly worthless in some cases,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but at least they would be written according to an established procedure.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And this procedure could be used as evidence[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: at least as strong as evidence presented by, say, an improptu volnteer organisation who has ejected a member for misbehaviour[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: according to their internal rules.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahscroft, there is an implied contract here. I did not buy land to join a game, but to use it to develop 3d content.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But, you also agreed to be bound by our laws in that same contract.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Those laws include means by which all disputes are resolved.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, but not your new version of the law.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Oh? Why not??[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahh, but our laws also include procedures by which our laws are changed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: No one has asked me yet.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: but jon, that must surely cover all new laws as well?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The ToS does not provide that the laws shall be static.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ok, I'm asking now :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Jon, why don't Ash's proposals include a means by which all disputes are resolved?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: The point I am trying to make, it that if you see us not as a model city game, but as a cooperative for buying server capacity for the members, this becomes much more complex. It is not as easy as saying, well, don't bother reading this long document.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I never said that what we were doing wasn't inherently complex :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And I never suggested to anybody that they don't read the ToS.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But can we not be a model city game *and* a co-operative for buying server capacity to play that game?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: aaah[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: so jon, do u see a potential issue when someone protests a nstadt court decision in a RL court?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Is a sports club not a game about (for example) kicking balls *and* a co-operative for buying the balls to kick?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: i don't see the two being that different[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: No, Jon, i don't think that anybody is suggesting people NOT to read things![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Rather the contrary... we'll encourage them to read...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, But Ashcroft we are specificly Not a role playing sim. This makes all the difference.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure that it does in the way that you think.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... but like in RL.... nobody can afford to read libraries packed-full of legal books[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's conceivable that people could challenge anything that we do in a court, but a court would be very unlikely to inferfere with the internal affairs of compter-game players (however seriously that they took their game) unless there was something....[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: ...quite serious, such as real-world fraud, going on.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, though I feel a bit more comfortable not reading most of my local city ordinances, than signing a random contract proposed by 40 people.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The attitude of the courts is likely to be that people involved in such an enterprise have their own dispute-resolution mechanisms which, like the refaree, should normally be the exclusive means of resolving disputes.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure what you mean by that - you already do sign a contract (not a random one) proposed by those who represent 40 pepole..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: unless we're talking megabucks, in which case ppl will use RL courts anyway![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, you are making a serious mistake about second life. Assuming it is a game only, and not a medium for expression and for business. For example we all are required to pay RL taxes on mony earned here.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But, remember, nobody has ever established that any of our items here have the status of real-world property.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's not strictly true - you're required to pay RL taxes when, and only when, you cash in your Lindens.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, Lindon Labs has stated that about lindon dollars.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: You're paying taxes on the LindeX transactions, not on in-world transactions.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: If you use your Lindens to buy in-world luxuries, you're not taxed on them in the real world.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: indeed. ashcroft is right here. for example. protection of IP rights in virutal worlds is very much in its infancy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ok... can we get back to the main point here?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Jon, what I understood is ? you're worried that things get so complex,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And IP rights are very different to actual property rights - you may not be able to copy my bench, but I can't stop you from deleting it from my land.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: that at some point people will never be able to grasp it fully,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: get us back on track gwyn :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and thus somehow sue us because we apply "arbitrary" laws that nobody knew they existed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: In my mind, though, things will *always* get more complex, as we grow,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: so how can we prevent that from happening ? if at all?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By making our laws non-arbitrary :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I just want to say that I am a bit sceptical about this project if it cannot provide short, clear, and easy to understand explanations.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Complexity does not entrila arbitraryness.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Ahh, the mistake that you make is believing that law can ever be simple :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash ? I agree with you, as you know, but I wanted to hear Jon's opinion.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: However simply written the texts are, the law itself will always be complicated.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Indeed, Jon, we can create a "NFS/CDS For Dummies Guide"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And we can do that in 2006[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: But in 2016, that will be impossible..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, I want to see the guide! :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Indeed, the vagueness in a simple text creates more real complexities than the precision created by laws that anticipate the complexities in advance.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: has there been a lot of arbitration regarding this already?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Even though the latter look, on the surface, more complicated.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... as we're so fond of noticing every day with 'arbitrary' interpretations of the Constitution, for instance :P[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: no xantha, i don't believe there has :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: hehe not really, Xantha[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: This is just speculation :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DimGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Xantha Oe[/b:33l7r08l]: if scarcity becomes an issue presumably disputes would follow[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: But it *could* become a problem.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: indeed gwyn...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I suggest that a comprehensive and just internal legal system is the best solution :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: thus the CSDF point in making the Const clearer[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, but we are a group of 35 - 40 people. Can we afford it?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, that is *another* issue.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: What do you mean afford it? How much do you think that you're going to have to pay?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I call that "Rudy's argument". How much can we swallow at this time? :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: No "afford" in terms of time, complexity[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and people[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Gwyn, exactly.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: afford it in terms of people, time, effort....[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: are u talking about cost or complexity jon? aah gwyn's made the point[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: As I've said, we can start with two people, one part time.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: We need a Chief Judge/Chair of the Judiciary Commission, and one chief clerk.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: We also need a one-time courtroom build.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That's it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: (Until we get bigger).[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i don't think ash's proposal is overly complex[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Both. Eventually, perhaps, this can help expansion. But will it help us now?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not sure that I follow - how can a proper judicial system ever but help?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: well, the lack of a functioning legal system holds us back in several ways[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, how many hours do we expect the judge and clerk to spend each week?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: it means we lack the underpinning to a sound financial system[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash what do you mean by part-time, please?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: we cannot offer dispute resolution services[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes. And the SC has currently a strongly-worded request to meet and establish their internal procedures.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: trying to understand the hours needed[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's hard to tell at this point. That depends on the volume of litigation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: hi rudy. welcome[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: hi Rudy :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By part-time, I meant that the Chief Clerk could easily hold other CDS administrative posts, at least in the beginning, before we expand a great deal.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: hi rudy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Hello :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: Hi people. Glad to joiin you.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: so it could actually be more people...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: there's spare crate by the table rudy :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Green:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ranma Tardis[/b:33l7r08l]: Hi Rudy :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: or more time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Also, remember that we're "competing" with lawless SL ? where LL hasn't a legal system of any sort, just an "abuse report system" without transparency and accountab ility, where everything is done in secret.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami will have to get more chairs :)[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Eventually, when we had the resources, yes.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn sounds just like Prokofy[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Welcome, Rudy![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft, in general people do not manage even some of the administrative posts for very long. As I am sure Gwyn can tell you.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: My point has always been that a functioning legal system could be a very big selling point for us.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: Moon, thanks fo roinviting me. I?m not keeping up with events.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: welcome Rudy[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: lol gwyn[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SandyBrown:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Rudy Ruml[/b:33l7r08l]: But the sminar haus is done, so more free time.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: yw rudy :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: brb[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That will be no more of a problem for the Chief Clerk than for the Burgermiester/Chancellor.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: ah, but the Chancellor will have a team of Civil servants[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Each of whom will have the same issue, presumably?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: If we can manage a team of civil servants *and* a Chancellor/Bugermeister, surely we can manage one part-time clerk![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, as things get more complex[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and lol[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: Ashcroft... i am trying to impress you with the notion that meetings take longer in Sl than irl[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: In effect everyone working here is doing so as a volunteer (even if receiving a very minor L$ payment.) And so I contunue to be worried about this.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I've noticed that..[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: the SC even has a budget voted for a civil servant, we just need to set its job description[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: and that you get a high rate of desistance after a few sessions[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'm not quite sure precisely what you're worried about...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: oh, i'll tell you[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Your concern seems to be the general fragility of any organisation in SL, not one specific to a judiciary.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: i am concerned is that you need someone fully available to the role, and that you cannot find him/her[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Or the amount of time that has to be spent on issues related to NFS in general?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: True, but that is not made any easier if extra tasks are added.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Which role? Chief Clerk?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, that is true, Moon.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And why are you more concerned about that than you are about your team of civil servants?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: whichever, Ash - a general fraility doesn't mean it can't apply on this particular case[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn is currently *very* worried about the lack of a PR/marketing person[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: And it doesn't mean that there's a reason to treat this particular case as different from any other.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: agrees with Moon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The personnel fragility is a problem with all SL organisations, and it's one that we have to battle against.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: because the civil servants can possibly perform their tasks in a few hours every week, and you said: two roles, one in part time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: But our system of formal government appointments is the most robust system so far invented to deal with it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, actually, NFS was set up the way it was, exactly because of that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: aaah Moon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I see your point![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: which leads me to conclude that the other role is full-time[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: so u r worried that we'll be saddled with a complex shell if key ppl burn out/lose interest?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, the clerk could perform her or his role in a few hours a week, too, I imagine, for the time being.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, Ash, how many hours/week do you estimate for each?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: The real question is what are our priorities then, given that our labor resources are light and organizations are fragile.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: "few hours a week" is not part-time,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: By "full time", I'd mean doing only that, and no other official job.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: 20 hours per week is![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Not actually doing it 9-5 every day![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Example: our PR/marketing manager spent 20 hours/week just on NFS...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Goodness.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: hmmm[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: And that easily. Sometimes more.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Taht sounds like an awful lot of work.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Oh sure, Ash,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: planning events, getting in touch with hundreds of people,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: updating calendars, websites, forums...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: That all sounds like far more work than all the judicial roles combined so far...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: It does? :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Great![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][i:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:33l7r08l][/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It would involve a judge/chair of the JC, who woudl decide cases and adminsiter the JC.([/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i tend to go along with gwyn's 'suck it and see' approach[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Just the ball took perhaps 30-40 hours of organisation, development, planning, and deployment ;) (2 people sharing the load)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: (There'd be more work at the beginning, getting things set up, but that'd be atypical)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The clerk would have to publish new judgments on the website, list court hearings, pass on documents to the judge, hand down official jdugments to the court...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: And to add to this, remember in-world organization can take a lot more time that RL[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The work would be intermittent, depending on the number of cases.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: what would be the alternative? put this on ice for few months while we sort out CN?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Pat, ever the pragmatist :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, we can delay things,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I don't see how that would help.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: although I personally worry about it.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: i think we would lose momentum[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I mean, the timing is right. We now have covenants on the new group tools,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The point is that a judicial system could help to attract new people.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: but i'm repeating points i made last week[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and nobody ? except us! ? knows what to do about them[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It'd be a selling point.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: LOL![/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ;)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well, it's true...[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: well, you have a point there Gwyn[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I'd never thought of it like that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: ... also, you might have notices that people are itching about what Chili Carson and her proposed Chamber of Commerce will be doing,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: I think I would be okay with going ahead with it experimentally, however, I do want to continue to push the people involved to keep it simple, streamlined, and understandable.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: and we have a somewhat working model for that, operational for 18 months or so[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: As I said, law can never be simple, no matter how hard one tries :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Law can be *clear*[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: not simple ;)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: i do agree that you must have a simple explanation for possible interested people[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Law that looks simple is actually far more complex to apply than written laws that appear complex (unless they are complex by redundancy).[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: do we know what the dpu position is on your proposal ashcroft?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, Gwyn! Exactly.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Ah, good question.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Moon has a point about a simple explanation.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: No - I don't think that they have open meetings like you do.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkRed:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Moon Adamant[/b:33l7r08l]: now i am not talking about the finer points of legality, but of marketing[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: There's no harm in having a beginners' guide to our law :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Navy:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Patroklus Murakami[/b:33l7r08l]: hehe, no comment ash :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: The Judiciary Commission, after all, would have the power to publicise our legal system, and publicise us by publicising our legal system.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=SlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Dianne Mechanique[/b:33l7r08l]: I think Ashcrofts point aobut the problems with aparently simply stated laws puts its finger on many of the problems we ahve experienced in general[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: If we are talking about a system as heavy as say, my local city here, I will be dead-set against it. I think I would support experimentation, on the condition that the people involved try to keep it simple, streamlined, and understandable.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Thanks, Dianne. I do agree with you totally.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: well,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It'd be a common law system: its complexity would grow as we grew :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Olive:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Yogeswari Padar[/b:33l7r08l]: i agree with jon[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: once could discuss what procedures could be "shortened" to make Ash's proposal look more "pleasing"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Since I have no idea how complex that your local laws are, I can't comment on that.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but at some point, some things simply cannot be "cut".[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: They're one-liners, Ash :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: What are?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Our laws here at NFS[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: Yes, I noticed.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: So, Gwyn and Ash, do you want my support or not?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: There could be serious problems interpreting some of your statute.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: s.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Sure Jon :)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Mind you,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: I want your support for a workable judiciary :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: I *also* agree that Ash's system is overkill[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: In what respects?[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: but I'm afraid that the alternative is having "nothing workable"[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: Well Ash,[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Blue:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:33l7r08l]: It's designed to be scaleable :-)[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=Indigo:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Jon Seattle[/b:33l7r08l]: Ash, the condition is that you try your best. Simple, streamlined, easily understood.[/color:33l7r08l]
[color=DarkSlateGray:33l7r08l][b:33l7r08l]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:33l7r08l]: way before you posted your loooong proposals,[/color:33l7r08l]
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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 24 August 3pm - Transcript 3/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: I was just checking up the methods employed by some association's ethics committes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: They're often simple[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: They serve, of course, a very different function to a legal system of an entire state.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Indeed.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: I was aware of that...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I haven't seen them, but for all I know, they could be oversimplifications.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Thus I didn't post anything :) I was simply not happy.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: That cause problems of interpretation :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: No, I didn't post anything, Ash. Just worked on drafts[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: mm hmm[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: also, I stumbled upon a block:[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: (I was referring to the rules that you saw, not anything that you posted)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: some "judicial interpretations" would become precedent,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: but precedent without "procedure", if you know what I mean[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Aaah ok[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: I was afraid that in many cases,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: the SC would have to rule based on things totally outside the NFS Code of Laws[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: since it's simply too tiny to establish judgement.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: That was the biggest issue about the Ulrika hearing.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: If I may, I?m planning on having an open discussion of the NS political syem that also bears on Ashcroft?s recommendations. In short, my view is that the whole thing is overly complex. But that?s my opinion at this ipoint.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: What do you mean by "simply too tiny to establish judgment"?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: How are witnesses called? How should they present evidence? Etc. We had to make that all up on the spot.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: hehe well[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: that will be interesting rudy, i look fwd to the discussion[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Rudy: as I've said about complexity before, law can never be simple. If one makes the written sources of law simple, the law itslef actually becomes more complex because of the vagueness.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Ok... if some of you have bothered to check it up,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Aha... well, there'd be a Code of Procedure issued once the Bill was passed.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I did look at some of the Ulrika transcripts.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: No, on tht I think you are wrong. Lasw van be made simple, it depends on the sources, and the arena in which it is decided.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Ulrika's biggest complaint about her hearing is that it wasn't fair and that it violated simple UDHR statements[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: ... but the truth is, we had no procedures[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Not even basic ones![/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I disagree, Rudy: the nature of adjudication of rules between human interactions is inherently vastly complex and incapable of being made simple.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Pat, can we set a time limit on this discussion and after that if we have not reached a conclusion, move on? Thanks.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: I think Ulrikas UDHR arguments were full of hot air on that one Gwyn[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Probably, Dianne, but the point still remains ?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: how can you determine what is hot air :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I know that Jon is keen that we have procedures that are clear. I am all for that: clarity is important. But simplicity is not clarity.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: thanks jon. i agree. let's give this antoher ten mins then move on[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant nods[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: It's way past my bed time anyway, so ten minutes is all I can manage[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: I am afraid i must leave also[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: so i will say goodbye now :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: thanks for inviting me gwyn[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: hehe, we've kept u up late ash, happens to me too[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Dianne Mechanique[/b:1c2fdmne]: and good bye ot all[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Anyway, to answer Gwyn's questions, the common law creates new precedent to fill the gaps all the time...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Cheerio![/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: bye dianne .)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: goodnight dianne, good to see u again[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Have a goodo sleep Dianne.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: There are established ways of doing that: it isn't hard.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: It's just a matter of legal reasoning :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: if i might, could i summarise where we've got to so far?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: it seems there are two main views being expressed here[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens to Pat instead of replying to Ash ;)[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant listens to Pat[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: on the one hand there are those of us who favour implementation and fiddling around the edges later[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: the advantage: we get a system of jusitic now and nto in two years[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: and can capitalise on that[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: we will learn from the experiennce and adapt[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Just like real common law jurisdictions :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: the other view is that the current proposals are too complex for our small society and that they may collapse under their own weight[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: furhter more, this is not the most pressing need we have[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: fair?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: now, how do we resolve the impasse?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I have to say, nobody has put forward any reason to believe that the proposals would collapse.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=YellowGreen:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]KCGANGSTA Rovio[/b:1c2fdmne]: D:[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: i believe they would, ash[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: And priority isn't the point: you have somebody (me) who's willing to dedicate a lot of time to this project, and only this project.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Why?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: and they would be bad marketing, also[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: And how?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: hi kcgangsta, feel free to join us[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: What would be teh mechanism of collapse?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=YellowGreen:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]KCGANGSTA Rovio[/b:1c2fdmne]: ok ty[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: complexity is usually viewed as elite-ism[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: And why is having the world's only rela legal system in a virtual world bad publicity?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: hmm[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: only the small elite can possibly understand the laws, procedures, system[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Hmm[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I don't agree: as I have said many times, laws are inherently complex. They cannot be made simple.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=YellowGreen:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]KCGANGSTA Rovio has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Making the sources appear simple makes the laws created thereby far more complex.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: i respectfully disagree[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: It creates arbitraryness that is unfair to everyone.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: I do agree with Yoge on this.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: But nobody has outlined a system of collapse.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DimGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Xantha Oe[/b:1c2fdmne]: seems smart to establish some sort of justice system at the get go with everyone understanding that it wil need to shift and grow and adapt over time[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: That's precicely what I propose.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Here is a scenario. Say, we place this system in your hands, Ash. (just an example)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: The problem is if it shifts and grows in the wrong direction because it was too weak to start :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: I think the difference Ashcfot has with some is in his definitin of ?law?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami listens to jon[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I follow Hart and Raz in my definition of "law" :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: And then a year later you find that you have some other commitments..[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Which is?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: You won't find anybody else to be CJC?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: and say, decide to focus on other concerns. But until then we had your work.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami reminds everyone that we're moving on in three minutes![/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: What do we do then?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: My plan was to try to bring in other real-world legal practitioners from the outset.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: To establish education and training in our law and legal syste,.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: for a 35-40 member community?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: And even, eventually, perhaps, a formal qualification.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: The hope is that the community will grow :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes, we all hope our community grows, but why be so complex at the start?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Ah, Ash, you are a real-world practitioner? How do we know that?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: And partly because at least some people might well be brought here wanting to participate in a legal system.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: I am a real world practitioner.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: our complex political system attracts many politicos, wouldn't a legal system attract legal practitioners?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Indeed.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: (one minute, folks!)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes, and then we have a legal elite, the only ones who can understand the system , ultimately able to take advantage of it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: And who will plan the streets and build the houses?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yogeswari: my system is not more complex in practice than the system that we have. It just anticipates the complexities and deals with them in advance, rather than letting them become problems alter.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yogeswari: you seem to dislike the whole idea of a legal system at all. There are plenty of places in SL where there is no government.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: This isn't one of them.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami bangs hammer on table. time folks![/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: And Ash, if you have to be a lawer to play the game, why would someone who is not a lawer want to do so?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: i think we have to be careful that we are not knee-jerk reacting to the ulrika debacle[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: This is for people who believe that government and a functioning legal system are good things.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: depends on how complex it is, ash :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: This isn't about Ulrika: how would you go about now bringing a claim for breach of contract in our in-world legal system?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i look forward to the debate at the RA meeting![/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Agreed that a government is a good thing here.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: It's already vastly complex. My proposal is to make it a simple as possible by anticipating the compexities and dealing with them in advance by rules.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: As things are now, however, the complexity is hidden and has the potential to cause serious problem.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: *cough*, we have other items for discussion....[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: As I propose it, the complexity will be in the open and easy to deal iwth.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: i am not sure we can accurately predict what the complexities might be in the future[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: but teh state doesn't limit itself to a legal system...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: IF that were so, no law would be possible.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Of course not. The judiciary is but one important branch.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: folks. we could debate this all night. we agreed to set a time limit on this. i'm calling time[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Jon: if you think taht my system is too complex, can you point to specific parts that you say are unnecessary, and give specific reasons, in respect of each such part, why it is unnecessary (preferably in the forums)?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: i would like to see all changes to branches amended in constitution[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes, the onnly way.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: sure pat :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Ah, lets move on.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn has remained silent[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well, I have to go to bed. I shall see you all in the RA meeting...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i suggest we continue teh discussion on the forums[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: g'night ashcroft[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: thanks, ashcroft[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: night ashcroft .)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami gives gwyn a gold star :)[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes, I agree. That's far better than an in-world meeting for this sort of thing in any event, since it is far more thorough.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Goodnight Ashcroft, and thanks for the spirit defense.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: :-)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SandyBrown:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Rudy Ruml[/b:1c2fdmne]: Spirited.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: The only thing that I can offer is a few suggestions on principles upon which "ethics committees" work in some associations, and I can tweak those to fit into NFS, and discuss on the forums.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Blue:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Ashcroft Burnham[/b:1c2fdmne]: Cheerio...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Goodnight Ashcroft[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: See you later, Ash![/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: shall we turn to sudane's proposal for a treasurer/estate owner?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes, please.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: again, it's in the notecard agenda in the box[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i think sudane has proposed this before[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: or something like it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: is it a no-brainer? or have i missed something? which is entirely possible[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: reading...[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami reads the proposal[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DimGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Xantha Oe[/b:1c2fdmne]: bye[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: bye xANtha[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: bye Xantha .)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: glad u could make it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: reading[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: hmmm, for a start, we must clear if Tresurer for teh City or for NFS-CDS[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: So one point. This is by far the most important work we have here. And it is a heavy load.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes, this is a point sudane made at sim planning meetings. one treasurer for the republic or one for each sim?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Hm.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well, also, actually, there does not need to be "one" person,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: thus I always prefer the notion of dealing with *institutions* with roles,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: and not people with job descriptions :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: As I mentioned some time,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: *ago,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: there is now the possibility of co-ownership of Estates (note: 1 Estate = 1 or more sims)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Don't ask me *how*[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes gwyn, this would fall in the scope of the Financial executive actions as i proposed[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: It would mean changing some of the groups... but it's supposed to be *possible*[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Point two,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Sudane is worried (very rightly so) about additional risk places on her credit card[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: *placed[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: This can be lightened in two ways:[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: 1) have additional "TEOs" for each sim[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: (I don't like it, because it means each sim is finantially independent, thus contrary to the CSDF's proposal of an unified republic!)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: 2) use shared PayPal accounts.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: indeed[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle nods and agrees[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Point #2 might be a slight problem regarding RL data ? if you set that wrongly[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: BUT it has the advantage that in theory you could have simply a "neutral" account paying to LL,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: gwyn, can't the republic be unified but separate financially? think US states, or countries that belong to the eurpoean union[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i'm not sure about the shared paypal accounts. i haven't researched that up til now. how does it work?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: There is another issue. I would worry that having one for each sim would be far more work total as each might have to duplicate some of the effort.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: and the citizens would just "feed" it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yoge ? oh yes, I just meant that I don't like it, not that it's not possible ;)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: That as well, Jon[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: And Pat... *sigh* it's complex[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Basically, you would set up a PayPal account *without* a credit card,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: or,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: better still,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: someone would *start* the PayPal account with a valid credit card[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: then remove it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: and then you can add as many people (with their own logins/passwords)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: but doesn't LL insist that there has to be a valid cc behind a paypal account?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: "insists" hmm :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: How do they *know*? ;)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: that was my understanding, at least for my account[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: They only know that they have a cc-validated PayPal account[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: not how many cards are there ;)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: doesn't paypal have categories? validated etc?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Aye yes,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: so the way you set it up,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: is as a fully-validated account[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: And then remove the credit cards :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: it "stays" validated ? PayPal *does* have your data,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: it just doesn't SHOW it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: As said,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: I don't mean that "everybody" should have access to that PayPal account[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: but a *group* of people certainly.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i'm attracted to the sneakiness of it :) but i can't see sudane going for something so, hmm, unconventional in financial terms[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Oh, i discussed that with her in March 2005 :) She still remembers that discussion :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: well, perhaps LL should do what amazon and several online retailers do - you can pay for parts of your purchase with different cards[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: At that time, PayPal was flawed, it had a few bugs... so we stayed away from it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes ? you can do that with payPal as well[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Olive:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Yogeswari Padar[/b:1c2fdmne]: apple store on line allows this too[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: sounds like this is the debate the RA needs to have[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i'm afraid i'll need to go to bed soon - ten mins?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant nods[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes, I have to head out soon as well.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: shall we propose further discussion on this? how about a response on the forums to sudane's post?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: i fear that few will take it all in - finances send most ppl to sleep![/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: As said,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: there are two issues here really.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: One is establishing the rules of the Treasury[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Sudane's proposal is fine,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: if one replaces "the Treasurer" by "the Treasury" :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: indeed[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: ie. institution vs. personal job description[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: That seems simple enough.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: The "risk" thingy is something else[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: indeed[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: how would a treasury fit in with the guild?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: That could be discussed independently.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: or with our other instituiotns of govnt?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Oh, also also replace "Neualtenburg" in the proposal text?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well, Sudane details it all on her proposal really[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes jon[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: and lol yes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Well, Pat, all those checks and bounds are in Sudane's document.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: lol, yes[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: k, i need to read it then i guess :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: What I *like* it is that the Treasury is NOT the "Ministry of Finance", but more like the "Bank of Neufreistadt"[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: Independent from government,[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: appointed (and checked!) by it[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: That's what I like so much about it :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: yes, that is preferable.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: Any last points before i call this meeting to a close?[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Indigo:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Jon Seattle[/b:1c2fdmne]: Yes, and I think that independance is necessary in this case.[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: none :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=Navy:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1c2fdmne]: ty everyone. we are at an end :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkRed:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Moon Adamant[/b:1c2fdmne]: thanks Pat :)[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=DarkSlateGray:1c2fdmne][b:1c2fdmne]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1c2fdmne]: That was a quick finish ? hehe[/color:1c2fdmne]
[color=SeaGreen:1c2fdmne][i:1c2fdmne]The meeting closed at 17:8 Linden time.[/i:1c2fdmne][/color:1c2fdmne]
Locked

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