CSDF General Meeting 17 August 3pm - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 17 August 3pm - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on [b:3681j9ye]Thursday 17 August at 3pm[/b:3681j9ye].

Location:[b:3681j9ye] Pat's Country Home[/b:3681j9ye] (on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt 123, 33) )

Please add suggested agenda items to my preliminary list by posting here.

[b:3681j9ye]Agenda[/b:3681j9ye]
1. Welcome to new members

2. Upcoming RA meeting
-Executive & Guild reform
-Ashcroft's Proposal for a Legal System
-Franchulate bill

3. CSDF Future Activities.

---------------------
Transcript will be posted shortly.
Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Sat Aug 26, 2006 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm
Location: Neufreistadt, Colonia Nova and Locus Amoenus and Locus Amoenus

CSDF General Meeting 17 August 3pm - Transcript 1/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Sienna:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Local-Position: (133, 9, 124)[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkGreen:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Meeting on 2006-08-17[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Those present[/b:3j54qn7w]: [/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: first item. new members[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: of course...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: yay for new members :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: we had mindserfer hilbert and chicago kipling join us[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: don't think they can make it tonight, but maybe next time[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: kk, they're welcome always :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Hooray for the new members.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: next, upcomign RA meeting. which has been postponed to next week[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: firstly the exec discussions[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: ah yes[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: read yoru mail Pat, only didn't have time to answer[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: i got to feeling that we were a bit stuck in our positions. seems we have agreement on lots across teh political diviede[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, apologies for the lack of answer on my part as well...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: brb phoine[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: So it's time for compromising, hmm? :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: excuse me, may i ask the purpose of this group?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Actually, remember I posted a list of items.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: I mentioned this in my email.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: Micheal, we are the Citizen's Social-Democrat group of Neufreistadt[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: a political party[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Muchael, hello. We are a faction in the political system here,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: i see[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: carry on without me[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: you are welcome to join in our discussion :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: this is my first exposure to any politics here[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: partner calling from taiwan :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: kk, Pat :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: :-D[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: few mins max[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: sure, np![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well, Michael. politics here is a little like quicksand.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Michael: some slight background here: http://neufreistadt.info[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: like politics everywhere[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: you get involved you may never emerge.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: Michael, theis sim Neufreistadt is self-governed[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Jon's sooo right ;)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: And indeed we are, Michael,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: so unlike the rest of Second Life,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: where a group or a person owns the land and pretty much does what they want with it,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: interesting[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: here, it's the City that owns the land, and the citizens elect their own government to run this place.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: i see[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: The advantage: people can come and go,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: the City remains, with its institutions and Code of Laws,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: and you just need to elect a new government ;)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: very nice[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: and teh CSDF has elected Reps for the Representative Assembly, the legislative branch of our governement[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: It makes long-term planning possible,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: and also, as people come and go,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: they bring new ideas,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: back. reviewing discussion so far[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: so we are holding our weekly discussion[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: and they can get elected to implement them.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkOrange:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Michael Sawchuk[/b:3j54qn7w]: ty[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: mm hmm. Planning for the next session of the representative Assembly :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh, pat, just explaining Michael what is N'Stadt, etc[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: soerry phone again[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: anyway, Jon, you posted a list of items...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes, these are things I had discussed with Claude as well. They addressed DPU concerns.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: my impression was, in terms of the selection and powers of the exec we were pretty close.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: ok[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Not the constitutional amendment question came up and is still a source of disagreement.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: From what I gathered, Claude somehow is not pressing so strongly for the "directly elected executive" any more...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: exactly.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: That's a good starting point.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Now we have the issue of const. amendment vs. bill[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Gwyn came to the last RA meeting and informed up further on the issue of the constitution.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: i do think a compromise can be achieved at the appointment issue[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes well,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Perhaps Gwyn should fill us in on that.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I've talked a bit with Justice Soothsayer afterwards...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: we may need to discuss what we can compromise upon, but i'd rather wait for pat for that point[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well... you got the overall idea...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: good grief, no one ever calls me![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle lol Pat[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: wb Pat![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: lol Pat :D[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: awww poor Pat![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn pats Pat.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Soo well... where was I? :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ah, Justice's theory[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant listens to gwyn[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: he somehow sees this issue of const. amendment vs. bill as mostly a contest of power,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami listens[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: if the SC rules that an amendment is needed, more power is given to the minority CSDF,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: whereas if the SC doesn't say anything, the issue is decided by the majority DPU[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: hmmmm[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: (ie. by passiong a bill)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: *passing[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, it did seem to me that the executive was not the point -- it was really to reduce our say.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: So... Justice's reasoning: in these cases, one should not "force" everything to be discussed at the constitutional level,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, that is a calculation we had made too, still doesn't deal with the principle[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: surely the issue has far deeper implications than just that...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: since there is supposed to be a majority party, elected by a majority of citizens.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, Pat[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: While Justice didn't put it this way,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: he somehow feels that the reason we're bringing the "matter of principle",[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: is a political move by the CSDF to actually get more power ;)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: In this case ? by forcing compromise[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: the wicked wicked CSDF... :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: the dpu are internally contradictory. pel says he wants to get four out of five votes in favour![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, I think the reason he says that,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: is that in a way he feels that this change, no matter how it turns out,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ah, but we already did get two seats on the RA and so it seems to me DPU's point is to get more power, in particular by creating a "winner take all" system where the opposition has no say.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: should be as unanimous as possible, since it truly will make a big difference![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Jon, yes.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: That's also my point of view, lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: ah Jon, indeed the argument metaphorical table can be turned like that :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: mm hmm ? I totally agree![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: btw...or rather not by the way... why are all CSDF members wearing black today? ;)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: it took me a while to work out why they want such a 'messy' solution- it's so it can be changed easily[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: ok, sorry. I got distracted by the visuals :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: didn't u get the memo gwyn?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: We were required to wear black today??[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe, just kidding with ya :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, that was Justice's argument n last RA - the easiness in experimenting[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: but they miss the guild out of their calculation every time[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe yes Moon[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: That is something I can't figure out[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: But I do not really buy that argument.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: what is the purpose of the Guild under the DPU's programme?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle nods at Gwyn[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: A mystery.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: which is a curious argument - since they also complain about the 'large name of changes' the CSDF proposes to our system'[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe yes Moonie :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Contradictions, contradictions...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes, Moon.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: so, do u think we were close to agreement and then got sidetracked by the bill v amendment debate?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: btw (and sorry for interrupting again)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: number* sorry...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ranma Tardis officially left the DPU[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Pat, yes.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, Pat, I think so.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: I think there are little or no substantive disagreements if we take[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Justice's draft and add the agreed changes.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I'd say, it's as consensual as possible...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: have i missed something? wasn't justice proposing a selected exec?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: BTW... Rudy told me to forward the idea that he is definitely against any sort of elected executive, lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: but he would explain afterwards.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh right! lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, selected by the RA, not elected.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: and was very disappointed to see that he didn't make a "contradictory" statement :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: And yes Jon[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: That's what seems to be on the table.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: so... to resume[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, that's close to our position. but what of the checks and balances the GM has now? where do those go?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: To resume, we all agree, more or the less, on the same document. We only disagree on the way it should be passed...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Here is what Claude and I talked about[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ah yes, and the Guild...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: and what I suggested.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant listens to Jon[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: The new exec could be dismissed only by 2/3 of the RA.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: and would in turn have a veto[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: that veto could be overriden[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: by 2/3 of the RA. No veto over[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: a bill to dismiss the exec.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: but all of this to be thru a bill?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Wait. What kind of a veto would the Exec have?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well, that is interesting.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: (and so very true, Pat, it hardly seems reasonable!)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I mean, over which issues, Jon?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Claude seemed to think that the changed propsal, the incusion of the veto would require an amendment.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: But then this disappeard when the thread continued on the forum.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, yes it would[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant is getting very puzzled about who defends what[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: it involves transposing a GM power to teh new body, doesn't it?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami feels a bit lost and needs to reread the thread(s)![/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes, if financial veto[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: So my guess it that they have now changed their postition.. that they will try to get Justice's bill through as is because it does not require an amendment.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: Pat, i do know how you feel![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Aah[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn is utterly confused as well[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: ah, i see[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: makese sense[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: ... so it's up to us to make sense of all these issues and fix things right? :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: more or less[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: god, what are we, the A-team?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: laughs too[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: LOL[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: So the veto would be over any bill, and yes, I think it would require an amendment.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: Genderman and the fantastic quintet :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: lol moom :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Since the veto addresses the DPU's concern, it seems like something they would like.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: *moon[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn looks for the link to that site :)[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: hi rudy. welcome[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Welcome, Rudy![/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: hi there Rudy, welcome :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: Gwyn. thanks, and sorry I?m late RW you know.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: pls touch the recorder to indicated consent to be recorded :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Hi Rudy[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: so...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: http://meratalk.com/tateru/Guest-Strip.jpg[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: I didnt know Hawaii was considered the real world these days!?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: lol[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: i guess one question is: are we going to let them pass this as a bill?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hi Thor ? welcome :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: hi thor[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: the best of the RW.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Green:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Thor Forte[/b:3j54qn7w]: doah, im late again[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Green:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Thor Forte[/b:3j54qn7w]: hello :D[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well Pat,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: hello Thor[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Hi Thor[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Green:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Thor Forte[/b:3j54qn7w]: hi hi[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: the RA has to argue *very strongly* for this bill NOT to change anything in the *current* balance of powers of the Constitution,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: or else, the Sc will have no choice but to veto it :P[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: I think we should consider drafting a new amendment[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: based on Justice's draft with the additional checks and balances built in.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Green:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Thor Forte has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: While I can certainly postpone and delay things to give a chance for a new Dean to get elected, to get the DPU a fair interpretation of that bill at the SC level... since they know what *I* defend...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: since the changes directly address DPU's expressed concerns, they would have a hard time disagreeing with substance.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Hmm[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes jon, and then the only sticking point wouild be the means[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Should we bring in Pel's statement on "I'd like this bill to pass with 4 votes..."[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, I think that the DPU may try to take that approach..[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: to get around the amendment question.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: mm hmm[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: My feeling is that it would be a bad deal for us.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: so how solid are jon and moon? :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Pretty much so :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Because really the precident of the oposition does not matter is their point.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: Moon is not very solid today :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: aww poor Moonie :([/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, moon is not so well today.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: sorry to hear that moon :([/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ah, you mean do we agree on this?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh, lol, no fuss :) but thanks :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle asks moon that[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, couild u be persuaded to vote with pel? i was *kind of* kidding[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: well Pat[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I truly don't know what to say. I hate it when the RA puts those things in the hands of the SC,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: i really don't think this is an issue that gets solved with a bill[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: I think we should draft our own amendment that replaces the Guild, as I mentioned, and hold out for that.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Claude used to do that all the time on the last term :P[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami sympathises with Gwyn[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: i agree in re-drafting teh amendment proposal[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: but[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: What would need to be changed on that proposal?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: iGuild?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Let me grab my list from the forum. One moment.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes, i do too. if we can get agreement that way it seems the best course of action? but what have we given up that way?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I think I'm going to take a short look at the forums as well...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: oh, just replace Cabinet by hmmm Burgermeister? and a few littel things, i think[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: 1. The bill would now become an amendment to the constitution and would also remove the AC (Guild). 2. Removing the Governor would require a two thirds vote. Not just a majority as in the current draft. 3. The Governor would be allowed to veto legislat[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: 3. The Governor would be allowed to veto legislation passed by the RA. The RA could override a veto with a two thirds vote.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: ah, yes the checks and balances need a bit of rewriting too[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: 4. Add a provision requiring citizen group participation in the planning process, this to be defined in additional regular legislation.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: why does citizen participation feature here?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: this what you suggested ?[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: to account for teh festival, Pat[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Ah, because the Guild has, in the past, been the main body doing land use planning.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: aah, ok i'm with u[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: and also[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: if i get you right[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: well, i think we're agreed on our next move[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Well, on a personal note,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: I'm quite against the Exec veto'ing the RA :-P[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: to remove that argument that 'any citizen can join the Guild'[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Moon, yes.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle listens to Gwyn[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: (me smiles very brightly at Jon[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami listens to gwyn too[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle smiles so brightly at Moon[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: listening, Gwyn...[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Oh, I have not really anything to add here,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: but if the Exec is veto'ing legislation,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: the Exec is effectively placing limits on legislation that can be passed.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: In a sense, it becomes a co-legislative power.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Soooo[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: hmmmm, i see your point[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: instead of separating powers,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: if the exec is vetoing legislation it needs to be an elected body[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: we're mixing them again :P[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: May I[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Please, Rudy.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Indigo:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Moon Adamant[/b:3j54qn7w]: sure Rudy :)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: yes, rudy[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle[/b:3j54qn7w]: Yes, I see. But I would argue that the RA still has the power to override the veto, so for bills where there is an effective consensus, the power will not have an effect.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: I have carefully read your constitution, and although I imay be wrong as incrediba;le as it may seem. Yuou aelready have an exec that can veto legislation and I?m sitting behind her.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe. not really rudy[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: the SCs powers are quite limited[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkRed:3j54qn7w][i:3j54qn7w]Jon Seattle laughs well kind of[/i:3j54qn7w][/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: constitutional scholars rather than an executive[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: they keep the RA from stepping outside its proper boundaries[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: and protect minority rights, for example[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: You have a twoo tiered government, anauthoritarin one, with the SC being the real government. It can veto legislation, and can initiate legislation and it is the last couirt of appeal. To this means that it is loke like the Plitcureau, with the Dean bein[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: The Secretary General.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Olive:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Rudy Ruml[/b:3j54qn7w]: Gwyn is contituionally your executive.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: that doesn't make it the 'real government' and it has no power to initiate laws[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=Navy:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3j54qn7w]: i don't see how that can be described as an executive[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: Sorry, back.[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: hehe well,[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: the SC should not have the power that people attribute to it ;)[/color:3j54qn7w]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3j54qn7w][b:3j54qn7w]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3j54qn7w]: The point being,[/color:3j54qn7w]
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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 17 August 3pm - Transcript 2/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: the SC has only the power to veto legislation,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: The SC can veto, rewrite, or resubmit fills It can skke impeachment. It isi not bount by the consitution and that is in the constiitution.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: *if* it somehow violates the Constitution or the Founding Documents.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: It can't, say, veto a financial bill,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Now, it is not bound. I?m reading it.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: or a bill that doesn't violate the Constitution[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: It's not bound on the Constitution to *interpret* it :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: *to[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: and if the SC oversteps its powers, it can be impeached by the RA or the GM[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: aye[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: In effect the SC has served not as an exec[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: That it not in the consitition, unless I miissed it.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: The RA does not even need an argument for impeachment,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: unlike the other two bodies.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: but as a constitional (and other) court.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Lets get back to the question of the veto.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: rudy, i balked at the description of the SC in the constitution as well (in fact, i put me off nstadt for a while) but it's not the authoritarian power you might think it is[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Ah, I found it. Right, the RA can impeach members of the SC.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Although, and this is something to be addressed as well, I think that most people would agree that the SC is seen as having "too much power"... and since that's the way people see it... that should be changed.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, back to the veto[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: mm hmm Rudy. It can[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: The question that the DPU rases is where are checks and balances to come from if the executive is an arm of the RA.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: indeed jon, it is a *good* question![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: and check it with the other two bodies. All need "grounds for impeachment", whereas when the RA impeaches the SC, it doesn't need any reasons for doing so (ie. the RA is sovereign!)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Agreed, Jon.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: The DPU is coming at this from a US perspective.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: an issue with teh SC - as with the Guild -is that it can become a hmmm clique easily[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Where the executive has far greater power than in many parlements.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: True hehe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: The SC is unelected, whereas the RA is. It is as thouogh the SC was a cabinet, with the Dean as the leader.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: As the unnelected leader, except by the SC.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Well Rudy ? indeed, the way members are admitted to the SC *has* to change.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: exactly Rudy... the Dean appoints the members that will elect the Dean... etc etc etc[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Right now, all they need is a joint "vote of confidence" from RA & the Guild.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: So, the proposed changes to Justice's draft are an attempt to include a system of checks[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: brb[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: While it seems to me that Gwyn is laid back about her powr, that may not be the case for the next dean.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Jon ? I see Justice's point of view,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: but I'm afraid he wants an executive with semi-legislative powers[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: or at least with checks on the legislative branch.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: that do resemble the US system, on what otherwise is more of the system we proposed with no popular election for the executive,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Rudy ? actually, you're quite right with my predecessor :) hehe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: since we have a plan of action on this item can we move on?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Rudy, Gwyn is the best possible SC dean.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Were I redoing the constitution, I would make it a parliamentary system.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Well, we have a practical matter of strategy.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: We are the opposition party.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: But, you need courts to deal with contentious issues.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: Gwyn is a great Dean, i agree :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: and there is another proposal on the table regarding exec reform as well.....[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: And as I userstand the SC ,it has served as kind of a court.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Rudy, yes it has.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: k follks, one meeting at time. can we stick to the issue of the exec reforms? we can discuss the SC another time[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, Pat, I agree with you.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: hehe sure Pat :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: jon, u mentioned strategy?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: So, do people agree that we should persue the proposed compromise?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Well, still to be decided, how will be work on the issue of bill vs amendtment[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: re-drafting of teh amendment? is that our poition? we stick for the principle?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I think if we hold out for an amendment they will have to allow it[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i think the principle is non-negotiable[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: btw, please forgive all the typos .)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: because otherwise a bill replacing the Guild will not be constitional.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: amendment or bust![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: yes![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: so, they're in a tight corner? .)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: yay![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, because if they propose an amendment giving the RA the guild's powers.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: we can stand in the way of that unless it also establishes the exec.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Hm. Question,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: do they intend to really do that,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I mean giving the RA the Guild's powers?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: The other option for them is to pass the bill and get it vetoed by the SC I think.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Or just indirectly?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Well, the SC would probably stall. We'd have to discuss it very thoroughly...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: yes.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: hmmm[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, they're going to take ashcroft's arguments on the constl issue down to the wire[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i think they might force it the SC[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: which way willthe SC vote? and how long are we going to be tied up with this?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, I do agree with Pat. But there may be another element here.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Unpredictable, Pat[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I am not sure how unified the DPU is on the non-(anti?) constitutional strategy.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: claude has not weighed in heavily on that point[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: i do wonder why do they insist on the anti-constthingy...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: in my opinion he's more worried about preserving checks and balances[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: ah, i have that opinion too Pat, he's been striking that note several times already[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Pat, I agree. And our bill would be better than Justice's in that regard.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: which is why my suggestion - replacing the guild with a direclty elected exec is so superb![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami is deafened by the silence![/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: lol[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: lol[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I actually think in the short term we might do better with an election..[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: (i didn't think you'd like it :))[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: but in the long term, it would be a problem.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: ?'m just a bit afraid that we're not proposing much in the way of an "agreement" on the const. issue.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Remember, Ashcroft's argument *might* be accepted by the SC,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: but it would mean a terrible precedent.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: hmm, i tend ot agree with gwyn. we need to move to get agreement[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: but Gwyn\[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Basically, that 2 years of work would (and should!) be dumped.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: Ashcroft's argument can be refuted by precedent as well[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: It won't be an easy decision.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Hmm[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: How so, Moon?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, ashcroft's legal proposals would put the SC below the constitution. but that's next item...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Well, I think that we need to retain our right to vote against what really are constitutional changes. What compromise could would in this case?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: That's my question as well, Jon...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: You can't have "semi-amendments" :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: could work?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Or half-bills, half-amendments :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: exactly.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: could we agree to a limited constil amendment, enough to enable a bugermeister bill[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: So, I'd say, that the only way is to "we'll vote as you like, if you vote on one of our bills as WE like" ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I think we may have to stick to our guns (terrible expression) on this one.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: and then add most of the meat in a bill?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Pat ? let's hear the suggestion.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Say, keeping the Guild? :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: but actually Ash's arguments can be also refuted by assuming that the Const is vague/undefned at that point, and propose an amendment to make it more precise...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: But just clarifying its powers?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes Moon[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: it seems to be important to them that things can be changed if the institution doesn't work[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: we think alike![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: you can say Gwyn[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, Justice was quite clear on that...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: remember that Exec actionsdoc?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: yes...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: so, the Guild does teh Exec actions, simple[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Pat, I see no reason to belive that is an issue at all. I think they really know what they want, just have[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: that's the beauty of defining the Actions, NOT the body[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: a steategy for getting there.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: BUT[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: *strategy[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: Guild must have the internal organization more defined[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: lol can no longer type[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, i'm fairly lost now i confess :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: lol, me too[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: What I am saying is that I really doubt they want this to be a bill because they want[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: to make it easy to experiment.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Oh![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I think this is a power move.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Aaah[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: right jon. u r saying it's just a tactic[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I might agree, Jon, specially because Justice accused us of doing the same ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, maybe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: pretty high stakes tho, given that it relies on the SC to acquiesce[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, indeed[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: but with very high payoff if they succeed[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Hmm... well yes.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: so do u think there's no real will there for a compromise?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: in effect this may make it harder for us on other matters.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: That I am not sure of,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: so...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: as I said, there may be different opinions within the DPU.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I'll be off for a second, I'm sorry.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Just pointing a customer to Moon's shop :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: oh, that's nice :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Ah! (smiles at Gwyn)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i think we may be seeing internal confusion and mistaking it for a strategy :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: hmmm, Pat,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle listens to Pat[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, are we agreed on next steps?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: i could bet l$ 5 on that :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: no lol[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: what are next steps, please?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle laughs, L$5 is not what it used to be..[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: if they published their chat logs we would know[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Is the discussion ohere published?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: (sorry, really slow today...)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i think next step is for someone (nudges Jon) to draft a constl amend and circulate it to us by email[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I will do that and send it out before Saturday[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: the RA meeting is delayed one week so we have a little time.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, rudy. we publish our transcripts so that ppl who werent' here can read the discussion[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: thank you for the tp, Moon![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: thanks Jon :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: did u touch the recorder to indicate consent, rudy?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: oh, gwynnine, thank you for teh customer :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: well Moon, she might buy some Fachwerks from Dianne instead ;) ? but still she compliemented you on your shop and how fine Neufreistadt looks overall![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: kk :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: k, just checking :) transcripts of previous meetings are on the nstadt forums, in the interests of transparency[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: mm hmm yes[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I think we've got them all online...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: lol, we had some complains... :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: so, gwyn. jon is going to prepare a new draft for discussion by email[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle laughs, yes we did[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: hehe yes, I remember that![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: shall we turn to legal matters?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Sure :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Ah, yes.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: ashcroft has published a reply to my post asking for info on the scenarios i painted[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I want to say something.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i thought they were v useful[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn listens.[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, jon[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant listens[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I really will need a huge amount of time to digest all that has gone on in the forum concerning Ashcroft's proposeal. And that fact alone worries me.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: That a real-world type of legal system may be far too labor intensive for us to manage.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: been there as well...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: we are a group of 30 - 40 people after all.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: there are some troubling features of his proposal which i will tackle in a post tomorrow or at the weekend[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, they are more suited to a nation of 3m+[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: but i like the scaleability, qn is whether they work at our scale[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: hehe well.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, gywn?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Oh, while I certainly agree that Ash's proposal is QUITE complex,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: well... how can we propose something that is "easier"[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: but addresses all the issues he mentions?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I mean... he has it all... even templates for forms for submitting things to the judicial....[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: exactly. he's delivered a fully-fledged workable system. it's quite brilliant[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I do certainly agree...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: However, *some* things have to be weeded out[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: can it b scaled down?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: For instance... technically, at the moment, we only have 1 1/2 judges available ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: That's the issue, Moon ? HOW? :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, it will work with just one court and one judge. which is all we need[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I can't answer that question except to say, perhaps that is an argument against our democracy. I can see such a system when we reach several hundred persons and multiple sims and can share the labor.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: I think the point about complexity in a tribe of 30-40 people is well taken. An elected council and a leader would seem normally sufficient.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: We *love* complexity ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: but we are encountering issues where we need a court system[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: lol[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: and are more likely to as we grow[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: Gwyneth Appleby? ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Ah, Gwyn, but it keeps us awake far too late.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: lol Moon :D[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: An d that is certainly true![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: this could be a service that brings in revenue and kudos for Nstadt[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Can you have a consitituional convention.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I think that would interest quite a few of us, yes...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: And Rudy, yes hehe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Pat, perhaps this could be thought of as a cost-benifit thing.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Hmm[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: well, yes rudy we could. but the current constitution was kind of formed that way :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Well... there is also the cost of having to set up a system for scratch *if* we don't approve Ashcroft's proposal ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: I?m think of starting my oown faction. If I do, I would push for such a convention.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, it might have some good effects, but how many people want to have a full time job as a judge in second life?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Yay on that, Rudy![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: yay indeed Rudy :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: good for u rudy. why not?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant loves multipartidarism[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: The freedom faction.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes, we would support a const. convention I think.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: mm hmm[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: are the concerns that ashcroft's oultine is impractical? it seemed pretty minimalist to me and yet adaptable[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: we would, i also agree[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Well... Pat, on that issue, I would be very much like the pragmatists,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: why don't we try it out and see if it works? ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i'm more worried about agreeing some irrevocable aspects of teh system (or difficult to revoke aspects)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i'm with gwyn on this[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Hmm.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: well, Beloved Leader.... i would like to read your objections too :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I remember that the biggest criticism on the SC, beyond its "excess of power",[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle shrugs and will go with whatever the group decides'[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: was its total lack of procedures.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: this way we get procedures coming out the wazoo![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Now they might criticise its *excess* of procedures :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I think if I had to choose between a new legal system and CN, I would go with CN.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Yes Pat hehe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Aaah[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: That is a good point indeed, Jon![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I would agree as well ? but why not have both? ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: oh yes jon, but is that the choice?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: I am worried that we are too small to manage both at once.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami is gwyn's echo today[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: lol Pat![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Well Jon,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: think of it this way... who, do you think, will handle the judicial,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: and who will handle Colonia Nova?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: hmmm, it's a fct that the SPC meetings are dwindling a bit... :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i would agree with u jon, but i don't think we can put it off. we have to seize this chance while ashcroft is keen and creative[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: the way I see it, Jon, only 3-5 people are available for participating in the legal system.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: And none of them are builders, texturisers, etc[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: On the other hand, we have perhaps a dozen of people for Colonia Nova,[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: if we say 'let's wait six months while we sort out CN' the momentum will be gone and the opportunity lost[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: all of them builders, texturisers, architects, programmers...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: I tend to agree, Jon[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: but i am concerned to get get CN moving once more[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: ?*Pat sorry![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Ah, but several people involved in CN are on the RA. And I wonder if this won't take some of our work as well.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: yes ? remember my early warnings, the DPU will try to stall Colonia Nova as much as possible ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: On the legal system?[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: yes, like teh two of us, lol[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: Here is a tiny secret, Jon...[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Couont me in on CN.[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: ... since the whole document is about "procedures"[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: that could be approved in the Sc internally ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: oh Rudy, thanks ;)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: awww thank you Rudy!![/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Navy:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3igo2whc]: i don't think the legal system requires too much further debate. hehe, nice one Gwyn[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: Very interesting. Hmmm..[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][i:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn always has some hidden cards up her sleeves,[/i:3igo2whc][/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: even when I don't actually wear them :)[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkSlateGray:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3igo2whc]: hehe[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Olive:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Rudy Ruml[/b:3igo2whc]: Hahs[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=Indigo:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Moon Adamant[/b:3igo2whc]: lol Gwyneth[/color:3igo2whc]
[color=DarkRed:3igo2whc][b:3igo2whc]Jon Seattle[/b:3igo2whc]: So perhaps it is not something we need to take a position on in that case?[/color:3igo2whc]
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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 17 August 3pm - Transcript 3/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Well[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: it's much weaker if the legal system is "internally approved" by the SC[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Although the Constitution allows it,[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: then hmmm[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: it's more specific about the Guild. The *Guild* has the power to approve its own internal procedures,[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: there would be work to be done separatinmg the legislative matter from the legal matter?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: there is a const. vaccuum on the SC.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: We generally assume that the SC is allowed to set their own procedures as well... but... that is not written anywhere![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Suggestion:[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: approve Ashcroft's legal system[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: but for 3 months[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: yes![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: and after 3 months it's void and null[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: So we can test it out,[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: hm?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: if it doesn't work, well, we can start from scratch.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: i like the idea of a 'sunset' clause[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: mm hmm[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: It gives people a way to tinker with it, to see if it's too cumbersome,[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Okay, I can deal with that.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: it'll also have Ashcroft jumping and yelling all over the place with eagerness :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: *Ashcroft* will make everything to get the RA to re-approve it after 3 months ;)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: And this will work to our advantage ;)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][i:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn has a twisted mind.[/i:2q1k8b6t][/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: ok Gwyn[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: yes, you do[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: so[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: hehe[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: you devious little minx, gwyn :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: what do we do?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: I had good teachers![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: LOL![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: LOL pat[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: and gwyn[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: gwyn, you will be known henceforth as Minxie :D[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: LOL[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: i think we suggest teh sunset clause in the discussion and see if it finds favour[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][i:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:2q1k8b6t][/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Olive:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Rudy Ruml[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Hmmm. I see whast I?m gointo ohave to deal with in confronting you guys.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: haha Rudy![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: And you haven't met the DPU yet ;)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: do u get teh impression ppl are reluctant to join the discussion on the legal system? cos it's too much to take in:[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: It's tremendous, Pat.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Way too long[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Olive:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Rudy Ruml[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Ah yes, I?ve talked to their leader.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: :D[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: an Ashcroft's legal System for Dummies would be nice... .)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Ah,[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: I do believe we can have that![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: or[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: we could ask him to write it![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: or have Diderot write it![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: What You Always Wanted to Know About Ash's legal System But Were Afraid to Ask :D[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: hey there shoomie[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Teal:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Shoomie Khalamov[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Ah hah![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Teal:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Shoomie Khalamov[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Caught you![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: there's a communist outside[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: hi Shoomie :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: lol[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Teal:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Shoomie Khalamov[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Ah hah![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Teal:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Shoomie Khalamov[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Caught you![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Hi Shoomie[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: lol[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: pl join us :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: i think we may be coming to an end tho :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Teal:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Shoomie Khalamov[/b:2q1k8b6t]: :-([/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: awww[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Franchulate?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: yes, i suppose so :( ten mins only tho[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: oh, it's simple[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: has pel redrafted yet?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle[/b:2q1k8b6t]: We are wating on Pel's rewrite that is to take in to account the questions we asked at the RA meeting.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: not yet[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: and not only that Jon[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: then that's that done![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: all the questions put at the forums too[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle[/b:2q1k8b6t]: yes, Moon.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][i:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant smiles at Jon[/i:2q1k8b6t][/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Good :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: ok..[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: ... silence ....[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: :D[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: so that leaves csdf future activities :) i still havent' drafted a blog post :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: well... point 3?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: oh Pat, no worries...[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Point 3, Pat has to sleep over it...[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: ;D[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: good idea gwyn[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: sleepitime for pat[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: hehe[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: same time, next week?[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: lol, a communist fox :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: aaah so perhaps sly? :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: that is one cute fox![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkRed:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Jon Seattle[/b:2q1k8b6t]: Pat, sure, fine with me.[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Navy:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2q1k8b6t]: k, folks. it's a wrap![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=DarkSlateGray:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2q1k8b6t]: yay![/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Indigo:2q1k8b6t][b:2q1k8b6t]Moon Adamant[/b:2q1k8b6t]: thanks Pat :)[/color:2q1k8b6t]
[color=Blue:2q1k8b6t][i:2q1k8b6t]The meeting closed at 17:0 Linden time.[/i:2q1k8b6t][/color:2q1k8b6t]
Locked

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