Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

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Tanoujin Milestone
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Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

During the last RA meeting I promised to make sure we can have a forums discussion about the pros and cons of moving the Estate to open, sailable Linden water regions.

This topic was brought up by Tor at the last LUC meeting (under Miscellaneous), see the transcript here: https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=9644

Let me give you an excerpt of the related contributions to the discussion [2020/11/08 12:56]:
Almut Brunswick: Tor, what about the project to set up a yacht club, a harbour master office and a light house on the other side of the channel? *ducks*

Tor Karlsvalt: oh well that is still in my head. I did ask LL for some info. Not sure if this is the right forum.

Almut Brunswick: Ah yes, can you report a bit about it? We can record it under Miscellaneous

Tor Karlsvalt: but I do think imo, that we should consider moving the sims to a good location connected to Linden seas. Just looking atm.

Almut Brunswick: Tor, I think that is something we should discuss in the new RA.

Tor Karlsvalt: And SL appears to be in flux as to continents. - I agree Almut. Belongs to RA. BTW, LL has added a huge archipelago on Friday.

Almut Brunswick: It is nonetheless not wrong to get this information here because the ladies around here are the future planners and implementers when it should become true.

Em Warden (emwarden): The bridge in LA was made extra high to allow sailing underneath...

Tor Karlsvalt: It appears rumours of connecting the continents might be true. This string of island is almost halfway between Belli and Satori.

Almut Brunswick: Em, yes!

Delia Lake: is that possible now, to move sims close to Linden water? For a while it was, then later it wasn’t.

Tor Karlsvalt: Well that is what I asked. Did that yesterday. they have not responded.

Sudane Erato: A few years ago LL instituted a "Community" project where you could apply to attach. I don't know what became of that.

Lilith Ivory: I remember we had discussions about this.

Tor Karlsvalt: I wonder too Sudane. I can share what I wrote in a ticket. One sec, need to put it in a notecard.

Delia Lake: /me would love to be attached to Linden sea.

Em Warden (emwarden): We are very grateful for your investigation into this matter, Tor :D

Sudane Erato: well... just be very cautious regarding what we would see.

Almut Brunswick: Oh yes, then we would be easier recognized and that would give our municipal development much more dynamic.

Sudane Erato: perhaps. We must be careful.

Almut Brunswick: because the harbour is nice, no doubt.

Delia Lake: say more please Sudane. I know you investigated this before.

Em Warden (emwarden): What are your concerns, Sudane?

Lilith Ivory: I could imagine it´s a problem that most of our regions are not exactly sea level.

Em Warden (emwarden): Ah

Sudane Erato: many many... I have spent 14 years dealing with these issues... but that’s a different topic for another time... I look forward to hearing what Tor finds out.

Tor Karlsvalt: Well this is just an exploratory effort

Almut Brunswick: I propose to stop right here and to pursue the topic in the RA, in the Forum and presumably in the next LUC.

Sudane Erato: if you wish we can organize a special event.

Tor Karlsvalt: My goal at the moment is to just see what is possible.

Sudane Erato: and I can discuss in detail running an estate connected in some way to the mainland.

It might be useful to share the text of Tor’s ticket here, and the answers the Lindens might kindly give in their benevolence at some indefinite future date. Would you be so kind to share it here, Tor, or give permission to share to those who got your notecard already?

Other than that I particularly invite Sudane to share some outlines of her knowledge on this topic.

Further we might want to have a special event to become acquainted with this matter and foster public knowledge and awareness.

I think we all like this idea at first sight, but would like to be clear about the downsides before we let ourselves in for the Linden Waters.
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Sudane Erato »

I promised to share comments and details about this topic, based on my 14 years of experience owning the New England estate, which is connected to the mainland in the way being discussed.

First... in the conversation, I remembered a little noted "community program" through which LL made provision for private estates (such as the CDS) to connect to a mainland area (such as "open sailable Linden water regions"). Here it is:

http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/Linden_ ... ip_Program

As you can see, upon approval and payment of a hefty fee, we can attach to the mainland... i.e. sailable Linden waters. Since the text remains in the official LL wiki, I can only assume that it will be honored, but I have no idea if it has been used. I strongly suspect that most of the Lindens are not familiar with this program. That said, there ARE new estates, north of the Blake Sea area, which are attached to the mainland... so something is happening.

OK... that's where the "official" system is at the moment. Now for the concerns.

To get a bit of the flavor of what it is to attach a private estate to the mainland, read this history of the United Sailing Sims and our attachment to the newly created Blake Sea mainland area in 2009.

https://blakesea.blogspot.com/p/history ... e-sea.html

Note that this history was written in 2013, fully 7 years ago, and while things in the USS have been fairly quiet since, as recently as two weeks ago representatives of LL contacted us and wanted to take steps which would toss out some key details of what had been agreed (filling in open water sims into void areas which had been agreed so as to protect several estates from the chaos being experienced in the main seas regions). We objected to their plans, and to their credit they backed down.

Do have a look at the map of the United Sailing Sims region, and particularly the location of New England: https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/ ... 28/128/20/

Most of the estates around the Blake are desperate to have a direct attachment to the Blake Sea waters. The Blake itself is the large squarish sea area: https://maps.secondlife.com/secondlife/ ... 28/128/20/ with a long single sim wide row of sims extending to the east, as far as the very large estate Second Norway. Owing to those direct connections most or all of those estates have been at times plagued with the problems described in the "History" document.

I took a different track with New England, establishing a somewhat uneasy truce with MarkTwain White, a fellow estate owner (and author of the History), to attach New England to a far-flung branch of his estate. That has worked better for us, leaving us, for the most part, more remote from the battles, script overloads, and griefers of the Blake Sea area.

But it has not been entirely peaceful. The conflicts range from the obvious... military vehicles which show up at our doorstep claiming they wish to "protect us" and who then proceed to crash the sims when we point to our strict NO MILITARY OF ANY KIND covenant rules, to supposedly benign yacht club members wishing to chart races through our estate (which by the open access rules adhered to by EVERY USS member estate they have every right to do) who then attempt to place sim lagging wind machines and start/finish lines in our estate and who get very confrontational whan any other sailor not participating in their race wanders through.

I'm not saying that all these things will happen to us if we connect. My point here is simply to alert everyone that attachment to the mainland involves all sort of interaction issues with other SL residents that we have not dealt with before. We should carefully consider every detail of our connection arrangements before making such a move. And we should be prepared with rules and procedures for these sort of interactions with visitors which may challenge the external peace and quiet to which we've grown accustomed.


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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Tor Karlsvalt »

As you know I have been interested in moving the sims close to the mainland. Specifically I suggest connecting to the mainland via a water bridge someplace with access to a large body of Linden water such as the Blake Sea. I don't think CDS would have to be attached to the Blake, but rather have access to it or similar body via free protected water.

In recent years I have seen LL moles adding quite a bit of Linden water. And in the last year we have seen LL expand mainland with the addition of Belliseria. In the last two weeks alone, LL has added two large archipelagos NE of Belliseria and it is rumored that LL intends to connect all the continents via land and water. Thus the opportunities of finding good places to connect to mainland are increasing. I believe it would be good to latch on to that enthusiasm by fully developing our lower sea level regions.

To that end I opened a ticket with LL in order to get information about such a move. As requested, I include the text of the ticket below.


BEING PROCESSED
Boxy Support Ticket #1619555
Created on Sat, 7 Nov at 2:16 PM
Tor Karlsvalt

Really I am just looking for some information.

I am involved with a group that owns an estate of six regions. It is known as The Confederation of Democratic Simulators. I am researching the possibility of moving the estate and connecting it to some point on the mainland.

I am wondering if that is possible and if there are any conditions. I know there would be fees for moving the regions. At our size, it would be $125.00 per region.

If it matters what the regions look like, the oldest is Neufreistadt. However, given that region forms the top of a large mountain, we would be interested in linking via our northern regions, Locus Amoenus or Colonia Nova. Both of those are at sea level.

I would not rule out adding one or several regions.

My interest is to move the estate were it will have access to Linden water and a navigable path to the Blake or some area that has access to the Blake Sea. A connection near Satori would be great, I would not want to be blocked by an owner of non-protected mainland.

In the past, I believe LL offered private estates an opportunity to link up to the mainland. Perhaps there is still such a plan.

I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

Tor Karlsvalt
#

The Interim Response

Wendi Linden
said 3 days ago (11 Nov 2020)
Hello Tor,

Thank you for contacting us. I apologize for the delay and appreciate your patience. Your case will be responded to by a specialist as quickly as possible and they will be able to help troubleshoot your issue and answer your questions.

We thank you for your patience while awaiting a response. As long as this ticket is open, we'll be using it to communicate with you about your issue. While there is no need for additional action from you at this time, should you have more information in this regard, please add comments or attachments to this ticket.

Thanks again!

Cheers,
Wendi Linden

So I was not totally blown off. There is hope for well considered response.

Granted this is exploratory. Sudane rightly mentions the issues associated with the mainland. However, I note that nobody is trying to leave the Blake area and indeed the estates and mainland around it are highly prized and expensive. In my view most have found that the annoyances of being popular are worth it.

This would be a risk. It will cost money. It might not change much or the benefits might take a while to achieve. Goodness knows, those of you who know, me I am loath to risk the reserve fund. Possibly to some frustration on the part of you over the years. You also, know I have never favored the building new regions just to have some fun. However, I believe that if we do nothing we also have a risk.

Perhaps there is a middle ground however. We shall see. My intention here is to gather information about possibilities and to spark a conversation.

At the very least we should consider this idea as part of the Great Master Plan.

Respectfully,

Tor Karlsvalt
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Rosie Gray »

Thank you to Tor and Sudane for all of this information.

Generally I am in favour of exploring the move, again, of our regions to the open LL waters. I can see that we would have to deal with the vagueries of not only LL, but all of the potential problems of the higher profile of being there. We do need to do 'something' though, in my opinion. We have so much to offer as a community, and our beautiful sims, but trying to advertise them has been frankly, fruitless. It seems to be the main way that people find us is to come across us by chance. And, now that LL has seen fit to vastly improve their Premium Member lands, that is a lot of additional competition.

If we were to move and absorb the cost of moving the regions, we might have to look at completing our down-to-water-level on the 4 regions that don't already go down to sea level. That would be a considerable expense! We could be looking at, at a minimum I think, 6 to 8 new regions! I don't know if this would be necessary according to LL or not. Do we know what their policy is regarding this?
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Sudane Erato »

I personally do NOT think we need to make any changes to our sims, in order to connect one or both of our northernmost sims to mainland water. The other sims have rock cliffs plunging into the void water, and that's perfectly acceptable. Indeed, more than acceptable... it would be quite dramatic.


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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Rosie Gray »

That's good to know, Sudane. It makes the idea much more feasible.
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Mizou Vavoom »

Just a little bit of clarification which I just checked out.
I used to sail quite a bit a few years ago and some 'watery looking sims are actually not water. I you go down through the water and you see no sand bottom it isn't water but an empty sim which means that not all 'water' looking sims are sailable. If you see sand then yes, it is an actual water sim. I tried to add the two images but couldn't - can someone help out and please explain how to add an image?
I added them as attachments but when i previewed they just get deleted.
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Rosie Gray »

It could be that the forum code changed after the last update. When I try to add an image I get the message: Error parsing server response. This even though the size of the file is well within the 255 kb parameters.

One other thing, Mizou. You will need to change the permissions on your photos in the links so that 'anyone with the link may view'.
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Re: Connect the CDS with Linden Water Regions?

Post by Mizou Vavoom »

Thanks Rosie, I have changed permissions on the images.
What I wanted to add to my reply on the water/no-water is this question: If CDS is closer to the Blake sea will we have to buy water sim to put around our connecting parts (one of our harbours) and will that automatically connect us to actual Linden water sims so that anyone can navigate in and out of CDS?

When swimming around Blake sea and islands around it, it's obvious that not all are easily accessible via water and thus less likely to get a lot of griefing.
Maybe a limited amount of water between CDS and Blake sea can be an option. I am not sure if that is what you had in mind Tor, for CDS to have a channel of water leading up to Blake sea, visible but not so open that 'our waters' could be used for sailing races.
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