Aliasi Stonebender: Alright, I think we're about ready to go... unfortunately, I haven't been given rez rights here yet so I can't rez an agenda box, but the agenda for today is fairly simple.
Aliasi Stonebender: We need to deal with the election, and with Han's petition, and finally some administrative business with the SC.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, if there's nothing else that seems to pertain, we'll move right along. Lilith, I believe you emailed the SC your draft of election dates?
Lilith Ivory: yes I did and Arria has been looking over them
Lilith Ivory: should I post the dates as we have them now in chat?
Aliasi Stonebender: Please do, so it's public.
Lilith Ivory: Official Dates for the election of 24th Representative Assembly - 1 December 2015 to 31 May 2016
Dean of SC notifies citizens of key dates : Sept. 30 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Qualification deadline to run for office : 12 noon SLT October 1 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Qualification deadline for right to vote: 12 noon SLT October 11 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Deadline for declaration to run: 12 noon SLT thursday Oct 28
Dean posts official list of candidates: friday Oct 30 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Campaign officially starts: sat October 31
Polls open : 12 noon SLT sat November 14
Polls close: 12 noon SLT sat November 21
Lilith Ivory: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Official Dates for the election of 25th Representative Assembly - 1 June 2016 to 30 November 2016
Dean of SC notifies citizens of key dates : April 3 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Qualification deadline to run for office : 12 noon SLT April 4 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Qualification deadline for right to vote: 12 noon SLT April 14 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Deadline for declaration to run: 12 noon SLT may 4
Dean posts official list of candidates: May 6 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Campaign officially starts: May 7
Polls open : 12 noon SLT sat May 14
Polls close: 12 noon SLT sat May 21
Lilith Ivory: ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Official Dates for the election of 26th Representative Assembly - 1 December 2016 to 31 May 2017
Dean of SC notifies citizens of key dates : September 30 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Qualification deadline to run for office : 12 noon SLT October 4 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Qualification deadline for right to vote: 12 noon SLT October 14 (census generated on this date by Sudane)
Deadline for declaration to run: 12 noon SLT November 2
Dean posts official list of candidates: Novenber 4 (Forum posting and inworld group notice)
Campaign officially starts: November 5
Polls open : 12 noon SLT November 12
Polls close: 12 noon SLT November 19
Lilith Ivory: (done)
Aliasi Stonebender: Alright, those dates seem reasonable to me at first look.
Aliasi Stonebender: pushing a bit close to the 30th deadline to notify, but well, that's why we're here today, heh.
Lilith Ivory: /me smiles and nods
Lilith Ivory: I can post those dates right after the meeting at the forum if we all agree to that
Arria Perreault: good idea
Aliasi Stonebender: OK. So, let's have a vote on it. Are these dates acceptable to everyone?
Aliasi Stonebender: Aye.
Arria Perreault: aye
Callipygian Christensen: aye
Lilith Ivory: aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Aliasi Stonebender: okay, simply enough done!
Aliasi Stonebender: so yes, Lilith, if you could post that, that would be great.
Lilith Ivory: phew 
Lilith Ivory: ok
Aliasi Stonebender: okay, next item. Han Held's/Curio's petition. O
Aliasi Stonebender: I'll drop everyone a copy. This is, sadly, something that we should have tackled more quickly given this is dated the 7th, but it took awhile to get a date we could meet.
Aliasi Stonebender: Since I can't rez a notecard, this is another thing that should perhaps be forum posted. However, to summarize it, it is asking us to consider the legality of various alterations to the plans for the new sim Friedsee.
RogueGeek Cooperstone: try rezzing it now
Aliasi Stonebender: alright, white box is set to sell contents for L$0, easy enough.
Aliasi Stonebender: Always the little details one forgets. Okay, so, this will be structured discussion.
Aliasi Stonebender: So first, I would like to ask Han to make sure this filing is accurate as it was handed to me. Han?
Han Held: Sure, let me check; one moment
Han Held: It's the same as the one in my inventory., it's what I sent.
Aliasi Stonebender: should have been, but I did want to get that on the record. So I'll go to each SC member and ask if they have any commentary.
Aliasi Stonebender: Calli?
Callipygian Christensen: sorry..gradnddaughter was arriving
Callipygian Christensen: could you skip me until I get her settled in
Aliasi Stonebender: okay. Arria?
Arria Perreault: I am reading the transcript of the RA. I would be happy to get more time to see what kind of changes were made. I think nevertheless that the process has to be respected.
Aliasi Stonebender: all right. Next, Lilith? Any comment?
Arria Perreault: All changes have to be resubmit to the RA. It is normal that the original plans have to be changed during the buidling. But these changes have to be approved.
Lilith Ivory: well if the text in the petition is correct that states: "Regular progress reports shall be delivered to the RA for review," I think the RA should have been informed there needed modifications to be made
Arria Perreault: I can't tell more now. I think we need to see the issue in details.
Arria Perreault: (Done for now)
Callipygian Christensen: /me is back
Lilith Ivory: done for now too
Aliasi Stonebender: alright, we'll go back to Calli, and then Soro, and finally myself.
Soro Dagostino: Yield to Calli
Callipygian Christensen: In reading through the Omnibus law in question, I see the word 'review' as being a notification for awareness. Ha d the intention been for any and every change that might be needed once building started, I think the word would have been ' for approval'.
Callipygian Christensen: It seems unreasonable to expect that a plan, on paper or even modelled, won't run into potential challenges in the actual impelmentation
Callipygian Christensen: the Omnibus Act, under Phase IV: ESTABLISHMENT goeson to specify that disputes and final approvals are an LUC and Executive matter
Callipygian Christensen: So my belief is that the law states that the RA will approvae a 'big picture' plan
Callipygian Christensen: that the Exec will keep the RA aware of any needed changes, but that the final say i n what is 'doable' is the LUC and the Chancellor
Callipygian Christensen: done for now
Arria Perreault: Is the text of the approved law here : http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... Act#p37017
Callipygian Christensen: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php? ... 285#p36945
Callipygian Christensen: the URL I gaveis the wroding that was passed Arria - its appended to a transcript
Soro Dagostino: My turn?
Aliasi Stonebender: Yes, Soro.
Aliasi Stonebender: if Calli is done.
Callipygian Christensen: yes.done
Aliasi Stonebender: Ah, yes, I see now, eyes skipped over that line.
Aliasi Stonebender: Go on, Soro.
Soro Dagostino: The difficulty here is the degree the implementer ((LUC & the Chancellor)) can change the plans approved by the legislative body.
Soro Dagostino: Some has to exists.
Soro Dagostino: Too much oversight will make implementation extremely difficult.
Soro Dagostino: I think the proposed petition overstates the position of the RA. SOME of that is good. Continued legislative oversight will simply stop a project.
Soro Dagostino: Done.
Arria Perreault: May I add soemthing ?
Aliasi Stonebender: Go on, Arria.
Arria Perreault: I have read the law. I think that the issue is the degree of changes (how deeply were the original plans changed). In my point of view, it doesnt make sense that plans are approved if they can be changed deeply or radically. I think we have to estimate how much plans where changed.
Arria Perreault: For that, we need examples.
Arria Perreault: No idea if the examples has to be brought by the petitioner or if we as SC members look on the sim.
Arria Perreault: Done
Aliasi Stonebender: Alright. Now I'll add my perspective.
Aliasi Stonebender: I confess the point Arria brings up is the one that confused me the most.
Aliasi Stonebender: Simply going by the petition, the issue seems to be 'the chancellor and the LUC are doing their jobs'. Now, a truly major and radical change would certainly not be within bounds. If the Chancellor had decided that instead of an alpine, central-European sim as in the plans, that instead it would be a cyberpunk urban sim, that would obviously NOT be within the plan as stated.
Aliasi Stonebender: Since we have Han here, Han, would you care to share with us what specific alterations are being objected to? I see 'terraforming' and 'parcel layout', but that seems to be the sort of detail that might very easily change for reasonable purposes in implementation.
Soro Dagostino: afk for a sec.
Arria Perreault: I will have to leave soon ...
Han Held: I believe that the parcel layout and the size of the lake are the largest issues, there was some buildings that were proposed (a church, for one) that were left out but I don't think that was ever official
Han Held: I think the largest point was being excluded from the changes, ie not having them forwarded to us to give input into.
Soro Dagostino: bacl
Han Held: done
Aliasi Stonebender: I have to admit, given the possibilities and the fluctuations of the SL land market, I could see some good reasons. The last modifications I can see on the LUC forum are here: http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=7043
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, I'm not sure if this is the sort of changes being objected to, but nothing there seems terribly far out of scope. Indeed, someone giving actual geographical concerns a consideration in sim design is kind of refreshing, on an SL-wide scale, although not new for the CDS.
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, the main issue I could see is if, for example, one might demonstrate that a change such as the size of the lake would make the number of sellable plots dip below what we'd need to have the sim pay for tiself.
Aliasi Stonebender: On the other hand, there's many who would consider the lake to be a benefit on their virtual land plot, so I suspect that's a situation where you make up on the straights what you lose in the curves.
Aliasi Stonebender: While by all means that should be reviewed by the RA, nothing seems out of bounds to me.
Aliasi Stonebender: Now, before we vote, I'd like to open up to any comments from those in attendance.
Arria Perreault: What is the question you will call, Aliasi ?
Delia Lake: /me raises her hand
Arria Perreault: (I don't feel I can vote anything else than the request for further informations to the petitioner)
Aliasi Stonebender: Delia?
Han Held: This might not be the time for this, but I'd like to have some sort of clarification of what constitutes "signifigant changes" that would require RA input
Han Held: done
Patroklus Murakami: /me raises hand
Aliasi Stonebender: Noted. Delia, did you wish to speak?
Delia Lake: Two points. First, the region of Friedsee as currently developed follows closely the original plan approved. As you, Calli and Soro pointed out, any project on paper has to be translated into what is doable and plausable. That was done with Friedsee.
Delia Lake: 2. Han mentioned the :church, which is actually designated as a chapel. There is a plywood placeholder for a chapel on the edge of the lake should the citizenry desire a chapel there
Arria Perreault: /me raises the hand
Delia Lake: and also but not mentioned by Han was a War Memoria. There is also a place holder for a war memorial on the side of the lake
RogueGeek Cooperstone: raises hand on that topic
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay, Delia.
Aliasi Stonebender: Before I move on to Pat, did you have a response, Arria?
Delia Lake: And 3rd. yes 3 points. the parcels as laid out give almost the exact same number of prims to public lands and for sale lands to insure financial viability of the region
Delia Lake: done for now
Delia Lake: same prim count as plan that is
Arria Perreault: I am aware that it is not possible to follow closely the plan in buiding, I believe Delia that current building follows close the plans. BUT as this project is using the money of the CDS (cituzen money), I think we need to set some transparency and estimate the degree of changing the original plans, as a citizen want this transparency. I propose that we request a list of the changes before to make any vote.
Arria Perreault: Petitioner and Chancellor give us a list and we can compare them.
Aliasi Stonebender: As a note, Arria, we are neither the Chancellor nor the LUC. We're not judging the changes, but rather, is it permissable for them to *make* changes.
Aliasi Stonebender: That said, Pat, you had something to say?
Arria Perreault: It is possible as long as the "spirit" of the first plan is respected.
Patroklus Murakami: yes, ty aliasi
Patroklus Murakami: i don't think it's reasonable for the RA to approve every dot and comma of every change.
approve a general plan and then let people get on with it. that seems to be the aim of the law.
this region is significantly behind schedule now.
we should just get on with it as we are burning money for no benefit in the meantime.
done
Arria Perreault: We need facts to answer if it is the case.
Arria Perreault: or any approval of the RA means "do what you want"
Han Held: /me raises my hand
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay. I'll let RG speak, then Han.
Aliasi Stonebender: After that I believe I'll close the floor to comments, so we aren't here all day - we've already overrun time a good bit.
Aliasi Stonebender: RG? you with us?
RogueGeek Cooperstone: I wanted to say that in reference to the memorial, there are members of the LUC build team and I who have had family members within a generation or so who were not on the same side of a major conflict, so we all decided to hold off...
RogueGeek Cooperstone: typing
Callipygian Christensen: /me raises her hand
RogueGeek Cooperstone: and come up with something to raise up all of us. Something we can all agree on. That's all.
Aliasi Stonebender: Okay. Han?
Han Held: I'd like to post the urls to the original Friedsee proposal and to the url of the last LUC meeting for compaision:
Han Held: This is the original Friedsee proposal; https://docs.google.com/document/d/1h6b ... Dg8WE/edit
Han Held: And this is the list of changes proposed by the LUC, the changes are at the bottom of this page; http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=67&t=7043
Han Held: done.
Aliasi Stonebender: Finally, Calli?
Han Held: /me chuckles
Callipygian Christensen: Part of the issue I am hearing is what people mean by the words they use , Hannah earlier said she would like some idea of what conssititutes signifcant changes and would require RA input.
Callipygian Christensen: 'Significant change' is a very subjective thing..which is why the Exec has traditionally had the final say in these things..
Callipygian Christensen: 'input'..welll input is about giving information and advice to help s somene make a decision..igiving input doees not mean 'whatever we suggest or say will happen'...
Callipygian Christensen: SO I believe if RA wants those things defined, RA must do so, not expect the SC to impose a viewpoint of what is or isnt significant enough. Done.
Callipygian Christensen: ack..sorry..insert by passing or amending laws in there. Done
Aliasi Stonebender: Alright, I think we've had sufficent input. So I move that we hold a vote. I believe the primary question we as the SC can deal with is 'are changes to the plan allowed at all'. Dealing with if these changes are too great or not does seem to be an RA matter.
Arria Perreault: I have to leave. See you soon.
Aliasi Stonebender: Still, that is my view, so we'll have two votes.
Aliasi Stonebender: The first question is, 'is the Chancellor and the LUC permitted to make changes to the plans for a sim?"
Aliasi Stonebender: while Arria had to leave, we are still quorate.
Soro Dagostino: Move the question.
Aliasi Stonebender: Alright.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, votes.
Aliasi Stonebender: Aye
Callipygian Christensen: Aye
Lilith Ivory: Aye
Soro Dagostino: Aye
Aliasi Stonebender: Vote carries. The second question, however, is if these changes fall within the bounds allowed, or are excessive. I believe our best response here is to advise the RA to review these changes and amend or confirm them directly as appropriate.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, with that in mind, I move to vote on 'shall we officially submit that the RA review the changes under debate?'.
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand.
Callipygian Christensen: May I comment Aliasi?
Aliasi Stonebender: Please do.
Aliasi Stonebender: Also you, soro, if you had a comment?
Soro Dagostino: I do.
Callipygian Christensen: I believe the RA has already reviewed the changes, in some way, which has led to this petition
Callipygian Christensen: Suggesting they review again, when the impasse is 'we want X and the Exec and LUC want Y' is just goinng to delay this longer?
Aliasi Stonebender: That's fair. I'd skimmed the RA transcripts.
Aliasi Stonebender: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: RA should define the "extent of discretion" allowed under the act.
Soro Dagostino: Moving forward.
Soro Dagostino: I think what the Chancellor and LUC did here is within that purview.
Aliasi Stonebender: True, but our role is not to proofread the RA's actions, sadly, just to judge them on consistency with our existing laws and foundational principles.
Aliasi Stonebender: So, let me revise my proposed motion, with that in mind.
Soro Dagostino: Not what we are doing.
Soro Dagostino: k
Aliasi Stonebender: I just meant with the 'define the extent of discretion' - we can't tell the RA what they *really* meant.
Soro Dagostino: nods
Aliasi Stonebender: So at most we can advise them that this is a matter they should probably resolve at their next meeting.
Soro Dagostino: Agreed
Aliasi Stonebender: Still, those are good points, so let me restate my motion and revise ti a bit.
Aliasi Stonebender: I move we vote on "The SC advises the Representative Assembly to explicitly define what latitude the Chancellor and the LUC has in making changes to the sim plan more generally". Does this seem to be a more accurate take on the situation?
Rosie Gray: /me raises a hand
Rosie Gray: may I speak before you vote?
Aliasi Stonebender: Hm. Make it quick.
Rosie Gray: thanks
Rosie Gray: sorry but I think the main point is that the LUC should have advised the RA about what the changes were, not to approve the changes
DJ Calli: >< >< >< Eva Cassidy - I Wish I Was a Single Girl Again >< >< ><
Rosie Gray: sent them to the RA at the same time as to the Chancellor
Rosie Gray: done
Delia Lake: /me raises her hand
Aliasi Stonebender: Hm. It is true, the LUC is supposed to be an advisory board. However, the Chancellor is the executive.
DJ Calli: >< >< >< Eva Cassidy - I Wandered by a Brookside >< >< ><
Aliasi Stonebender: So when I say "the Chancellor and the LUC", it is meant only to reflect that our Chancellor did not magically cook up the ideas from his own head.
Aliasi Stonebender: Delia?
Delia Lake: CDSL 21-01. SECTION II: POWERS
The purpose of this commission is to form a group of experts to advise the RA in the mandate of the parent body to make laws and control finances, as well as to advise the Executive regarding land usage and management.
DJ Calli: >< >< >< Eva Cassidy - Time After Time >< >< ><
Delia Lake: the LUC in accord with the law advised the Executive regarding land usage and management if you re going to be technical about the letter of the law
Delia Lake: Friedsee was already purchased at that point
Aliasi Stonebender: Still. The question here is not 'did the LUC advise the Executive', looking at the petition more closely. But rather, 'did the Executive cross a line that necessitated them getting RA approval'?
Soro Dagostino: And I think that is what the RA has to define.
Aliasi Stonebender: We agree that the Executive *can* make changes, but they cannot be *too great* of a change. However, what I am unsure of is 'do we need to compel the Executive to seek RA review'.
Aliasi Stonebender: Or should we simply take the lack of objection from the RA as assent?
Aliasi Stonebender: And I admit, I'm not sure I see how it is the Scientific Council's role to tell the RA how to do their jobs.
Aliasi Stonebender: If they were doing something in contradiction of the constitution, that's one thing. But this seems to be a disagreement on how the RA is handling it. A mechanism already exists for that; submit the question to them and allow them to vote on it.
Soro Dagostino: That is my sense of the Motion
Soro Dagostino: Call the question
Aliasi Stonebender: In my view, the only involvement is if we, as the SC, should submit the question ourselves.
Aliasi Stonebender: Given Han is on the RA, I'm not sure why that would be necessary. and if the RA disagrees, we are not an appeals court to overrule the elected representatives of what is ostensibly a democratic project.
Aliasi Stonebender: Still, for the record, I wish to put it to a vote. Should we recommend the RA take a look at these changes and rule on what is the allowable extent?
Aliasi Stonebender: That's my motion.
Soro Dagostino: Second.
Soro Dagostino: Sorry I have to go soon.
Aliasi Stonebender: sure, we're about done here. The only other item is simple.
Aliasi Stonebender: In any case: nay.
Soro Dagostino: Shall we vote?
Callipygian Christensen: Nay - because unless the 'allowable extent' is defined in the law, which it isn't.
Lilith Ivory: nay
Soro Dagostino: Nay
Aliasi Stonebender: The nays have it. So, since changes are permitted, it's up to the RA to see if they feel these changes are too excessive.
Aliasi Stonebender: That closes that item.
Soro Dagostino: Sorry, I have to go.
Soro Dagostino: Bye all.
Aliasi Stonebender: The last item I wished to deal with is basically administrative, it can wait.
Callipygian Christensen: bye Soro
Aliasi Stonebender: just to see who should be charged with posting transcripts.
Aliasi Stonebender: Given I'm already keeping track, and I believe Calli, you said you'd had yours on?
Callipygian Christensen: if Lilith is interested in continuing as Secretary, I give her my support
Lilith Ivory: as I said before I?d gladly keep posting the transcript on the forum ..
Lilith Ivory: but posting them on the portal is a problem for me as I just never get this done
Lilith Ivory: so for this we should better find another vict... uhm volunteer
Callipygian Christensen: I'd suggest talking to Arria about posting on the portal Aliasi - she already knows how and may be willing
Aliasi Stonebender: I admit, I seem to be the one left there, although I confess I might be just as bad for time... heh. I'll bring it up with Arria.
Rosie Gray: must be off... bye all
Lilith Ivory: bye Rosie
Callipygian Christensen: I mvote that Lilith continue as Secretary, with the understanding that someone else will be found to post to portal
Aliasi Stonebender: I'll second.
Lilith Ivory: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Callipygian Christensen: aye
Aliasi Stonebender: okay, vote carries.
Aliasi Stonebender: I believe that's all the business to deal with for this meeting, so I move to adjourn.
Callipygian Christensen: I second
Lilith Ivory: I second
Callipygian Christensen: /me arm wrestles Lilith for seconding rights
Lilith Ivory: hehe in this case I take my second back and vote just aye
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Lilith Ivory: aye
Callipygian Christensen: ye
Lilith Ivory: ok folks I need to run
Lilith Ivory: see you later
Tanoujin Milestone: bye Lilith
Han Held: Thanks for hearing our case
Han Held: /me waves
Aliasi Stonebender: and I'm out, myself.
Tanoujin Milestone: Bye Aliasi
RogueGeek Cooperstone: Well
Delia Lake: time to go home and log in to rl for a bit