SC meeting transcript Saturday July 25

Announcements by the Dean of the Scientific Council

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SC meeting transcript Saturday July 25

Post by Lilith Ivory »

Amended Agenda:

Approval of Amended Agenda

New Business:
Review of two Chancellor's estate bans

Old Business:
1. Request to the incoming RA:update ND 5 min
2. Dates for future elections - 10 min. OD 10 min
3. NL 7-10 IP Licensing and Content Archivist Act draft amendment update ND 5 min
4. Impeachment - wording and method re: citizen input; general comments on drafting - OD 20 min

Administrative:
1. Discussion: What constitutes 'publication' re: laws passed by RA?
2.Call for Nominations & Election of Dean

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Arria Perreault: Hello everybody ?
Lilith Ivory: Hi Rosie
Rosie Gray: ?
Rosie Gray: hi Lilith and everyone
Callipygian Christensen: there is an amendment to the agenda, so please take one from the box if you are using one from the notices that went out
Callipygian Christensen: /me does a quick frontal cam to check that she isnt dispalying an empty void in this sit before beginning
Alizea:
Lilith Ivory: Hi Widget
Arria Perreault: Hi Widget
Widget Whiteberry: good morning
Callipygian Christensen: ok..let's get this show on the road
RogueGeek Cooperstone: Hiya Widge
Callipygian Christensen: I call this meeting to order and ask for a motion to accept the amended agenda. The amendment is to add review of bans, that we are required to do (with thanks to Lilith for reminding me!)
Soro Dagostino: So move.
Lilith Ivory: I second :)
Aliasi Stonebender: fair enough.
Callipygian Christensen: thanks you..all SC please vote to accept amended agenda
Callipygian Christensen: aye
Lilith Ivory: aye
Soro Dagostino: aye
Arria Perreault: aye
Callipygian Christensen: (this is where we sound like a Mexican cantina band)
Lilith Ivory: /me giggles
RogueGeek Cooperstone: ole
Aliasi Stonebender: aye
Callipygian Christensen: motion carried..first item under new business. Two estate bans -Ill ented the info for the record:
Callipygian Christensen: Widget placed the following ban: ShowStopper Discordia (ShowStopperLadyTothian Resident) bought LA P.16 on Friday, June 26 for $1L. Lil sent a notecard about the need to pay tier. On Sunday, I noted that the parcel was set to sell to anyone for 20 lindens and that tier had not been paid. I conferred with Coop and Lilith. On the morning of June 29, Coop authorized returning the parcel to Rudeen and banning, which I did.
Callipygian Christensen: Coop placed the following: lacrimbg26 Resident.

He had purchased 3 parcels in succession, but failed to pay the rental meter on all three. When IMed, he replied that he did not speak English. When asked in French, he refused to answer repeated IMs from several individuals.

The avatar is less than 3 months old and has no picture and has no description.
Callipygian Christensen: I am putting them both out together because cause is the same:
Callipygian Christensen: I have receivedd no request from either avatar to remove the bans.
Callipygian Christensen: I see no reason to remove the bans. SC members..any comments?
Callipygian Christensen: Open discussion..just go ahead if you do :)
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Go ahead Soro
Soro Dagostino: There was an effort to contact these AV's?
RogueGeek Cooperstone: Yes. By IM and by notecard.
Soro Dagostino: kk
Arria Perreault: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Yes, the notecards I received identify attempt to contact
Aliasi Stonebender: given all that, seems fairly open and shut. might have even been land bots of some kind.
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Josephine Fotherington: I wrote a notecard in French to the one who said he did not speak English, explaining he needed to pay the meter.
Arria Perreault: I understand that this behavior (buying land and not paying the fees) is a bit annoying for land management. But do we have a legal basis for banning these avatars )
Arria Perreault: ?
Arria Perreault: in this specific case, I mean

Callipygian Christensen: I believe it is within the Chancellor's scope to do so - especially if there is no attempt by the banned avatar to comply with the laws re tier..and in one case..an attept to profit from ignoring the laws.
Aliasi Stonebender: granted, L$19 is a very small profit, but there is the principle of it
Callipygian Christensen: exactly Aliasi - ignore 19L and the precedent is there for 1900 :)
Arria Perreault: well ... people who don't pay fees are not citizen anymore, but not banned ...
Lilith Ivory: ... and for a Newbie 19L$ is a lot of money ;-)
RogueGeek Cooperstone: If I may, in my experience outside CDS, this sort of behavior can be commonplace, and typically seeing an avi with no profile, less than 3 months old who buys land smells like a bot.
Callipygian Christensen: In this case Arria they never became citizens..no tier was ever paid
Aliasi Stonebender: if it was an honest mistake, a simple reply to that effect would be enough to get them unbanned anyway.
Callipygian Christensen: it seems unreasonable to expect EMs to spend time dealing with nuisance behaviour - perhaps we can suggest though that in future, when notifying an avatar of this type of ban, it include the informatin on how to contact the SC to appeal.
Lilith Ivory: I don?t think either of them was a bot as the newbie also crashed his car on my fence but of course the actions of both Avatars can be considered as griefing
Callipygian Christensen: Any further discussion?
Arria Perreault: I want to say that I am not sure that our laws are considering such cases. I guess harassment is something different. It is also probably not forbidden that the Chancellor does it, if he thinks it is a right measure. But considering the profile of the avatar would be wrong to justify the action.
Rosie Gray: hello Carissima ?
Lilith Ivory: HI Carissima and welcome to CDS :)
Arria Perreault: There is a lack in our laws : case for banning avatars.
Carissima Resident: Hi :-)
Arria Perreault: cases*
Arria Perreault: I am done
Aliasi Stonebender: well, generally speaking the only reason to ban someone is griefing - broadly speaking, antisocial behavior.
Callipygian Christensen: Arria, I agree that there is no law listng reasons for banning, and that would be a matter for RA to address. In the absence of that I think it is the Chancellor's responsibility to address such behaviours *nod*
Aliasi Stonebender: sitting on a plot of land that could be bought by someone with a genuine interest in the CDS without intent to join is a much minor case compared to trying to crash people with a malformed mesh object, but it's still a nuisance.
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods to Aliasi
Callipygian Christensen: Our options are to support, rescind or amend the ban and specify a time frame for review if it is upheld.
Lilith Ivory: I personally had not banned those Avies as long as they don?t do it again after having taken back their land once ...
Lilith Ivory: but I agree it is the right of the canchellor to be more strict than nice me would be ;-)
Arria Perreault: if this is the question, I am in favor to remove the ban
Arria Perreault: in both cases
Aliasi Stonebender: a time limited ban and a note to see if the behavior repeats is probably sufficent, yes
Soro Dagostino: Agree with Aliasi
Callipygian Christensen: Arria is one vote for remove..(and I have no idea how one 'amedns' a ban)..so SC members..please state 'uphold' or' remove'
Callipygian Christensen: Uphold

Arria Perreault: remove
Soro Dagostino: remove
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi, Lilith?
Aliasi Stonebender: hm.. despite what I said, I'm going with uphold.
Lilith Ivory: uphold .. while liking Alisas idea best too
Soro Dagostino: So, can I change? I misunderstood --
Callipygian Christensen: Soro..sure..you want to uphold?
Soro Dagostino: Yes. I thought the ban was permenant
Callipygian Christensen: ah..no..we set a timeframe now for review
Callipygian Christensen: so 4 votes uphold the ban
Callipygian Christensen: *bans
Arria Perreault: and we will review these cases next time ?
Callipygian Christensen: Timeframe for review..Aliasi..you mentioned this..any suggestion?
Aliasi Stonebender: well, mostly that seems a simple manner. can clear it after a month or so, or earlier if they actually bother to ask. The idea is to stop scams or harassment, not to drive people out.
Callipygian Christensen: That wold fit with Arria's 'review next time' question..so I believe we have 2 suggesting review at our next meeting.
Callipygian Christensen: Lilith, Soro..do you support that?
Arria Perreault: may I a comment ?
Lilith Ivory: I am in favor for it too
Soro Dagostino: I agree with that
Callipygian Christensen: go ahead Arria
Arria Perreault: I have voted "remove" because I see currently no reasons for banning these avatars. I will look our code of laws, And I hope that the SC will not have to vote on bans at the beginning of every meeting for actions that bring no real dangers for our community. In my point of view banning is something that should stay exceptionnal.
Arria Perreault: done
Lilith Ivory: /me nods
Callipygian Christensen: thank you Arria.
Callipygian Christensen: ok.to summarize..the bans are upheld, they will be reviewed at our next meeting, including how to appeal the ban in future notes to those banned would be a good thing, and Arria will research banning for this type of behaviour.
Callipygian Christensen: Onward.
Callipygian Christensen: Item 1 - old business - our requests to the RA
Callipygian Christensen: These were placed on the agenda of the last RA meeting , but the meeting adjourned before they were addressed
Callipygian Christensen: Hopefully some action will occur at the meeting next weekend.
Callipygian Christensen: Any comments?
Callipygian Christensen: ok..Item 2
Callipygian Christensen: dates for future elections - Lilith?
Lilith Ivory: I finally managed it to get the first version done and send it to Arria ho have a look at it yesterday
Lilith Ivory: I can p?ass it to you too now if you want
Arria Perreault: I have a comment
Callipygian Christensen: Probably easier if you circulate to everyone once you both have agreed the dates are correct?
Lilith Ivory: (and I appologize to send it to Arria in the last moment)
Callipygian Christensen: Arria?
Arria Perreault: OK. I had infortunately less time than expected to review. I had a first look. I think that the dates for the next terms work. I have doubt for the term beginning on 1st June 2016.
Callipygian Christensen: Ok Arria - could you discuss your concerns with Lilith - and then circulate the dates you agree on once done?
Arria Perreault: My proposal : I take more time to review and I send my comments to Lilith. I am confident that we come with a proposal for the next meeting.
Callipygian Christensen: For those attending today - the dates related to elections are mandated by lawand Consititution and need to be figured out for each elections cycle.

Callipygian Christensen: Thank you Arria..that works..and thank you both for taking on that task again.
Lilith Ivory: yes that works for me too :)
Callipygian Christensen: Item 3 - Licensing and Content Archivist amendment - again, it was on the last RA agenda but was not addressed. Hopefully next weekend will see it dealt with.
Callipygian Christensen: Item 4: Impeachment - mea culpa on this. I had indicated I'd work on wording and gathering input and have not had time to do so.
Callipygian Christensen: I expect to have more time in the coming month and will have a full draft ready for next meeting - including the suggestin that any y panel hearing an impeachment will have representation from all arms of gov't - with the SC deciding on penalty.
Callipygian Christensen: I know this will be an area of debate amongst us - so will post to the Discussion forum as soon as it is ready.
Callipygian Christensen: It is my hope though that we will have both hearing and impeachment procedures in place prior to the next election cycle.
Callipygian Christensen: SC members - any considerations or concerns you want addressed in the impeachment procedures? Open discussion - just go ahead if you do.
Aliasi Stonebender: I admit it's a largely theoretical procedure, since the only times we might have even considered using the procedure, th eperson in question left the CDS anyway.
Rosie Gray: ?
Soro Dagostino: Just want to see fair procedures with due process.
Aliasi Stonebender: by which I mean we don't have much in the way of precedent.
Callipygian Christensen: it is Aliasi..but I think hisotyr here has tuaght us that not addressing a 'gap' leaves it open for the return of someone or the arrival of someone, more than happy to exploit it.
Lilith Ivory: /me nods in agreement
Widget Whiteberry: /me nods vigorously
Callipygian Christensen: Since the possibility of impeachment is mentioned in law - having a procedure to actually cary it out is needed.
Callipygian Christensen: Soro - that is certainly what we are aiming for
Callipygian Christensen: Aliasi..the not having precedent does mean we are free to create a procedure that is , as Soro says, fair and with due process, without the restrictions of 'past actions'
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..I will wrok on the draft more and post for discussion.
Callipygian Christensen: On to administrative items.
Callipygian Christensen: I have broached for discussion 'What constitutes publication for laws passed by RA'
Callipygian Christensen: A little background - members of the SC have 48 hours 'from publication' currently, to flag any law for SC review.
Callipygian Christensen: At one time the complete wording of any motion was included in the RA transcript - so while having to read every transcript was a pain, it was at least there in one place.
Callipygian Christensen: That practise has fallen out of favour in the last few terms - at this point it is not unusual to have to read that a vote has been held, click through to read wording in a forum post, read also any wording amendment added in the transcript..
Callipygian Christensen: and do the same again each time that law might come up and need to be referenced.
Callipygian Christensen: I think that is pacing an unfair burden on members of this body
Aliasi Stonebender: I admit I always thought publication was something more like, well, posting the result on the forum or on the portal web site.

Callipygian Christensen: this is open discussion - SC members - what are your thoughts? What do you consider to be a reasonable requirement for a law to be considered 'published'?
Arria Perreault: /me raise hand
Callipygian Christensen: Just go ahead Arria
Arria Perreault: several of use were members of the RA or even LRA. We know how things work. There are long discussions, amendments, ... Sometimes it not clear which text is voted. I think that it is the LRA's duty to make it clear during the meeting which text is voted. I think that the RA Archivist maybe with the the LRA could make a summary of the meeting with main decisions and voted texts.
Arria Perreault: The summary is published after the transcript of the meeting.
Rosie Gray: /me raises a hand
Arria Perreault: After a certain period when it is confirmed, it must be on the portal.
Callipygian Christensen: well the Minutes are a summary, and traditionally do have thw wording of any motions
Arria Perreault: done
Callipygian Christensen: So arria..carifying here - you would see the summary /Minutes including the wording as 'publication' with the SC having 48 hours form that time?
RogueGeek Cooperstone: /me raises hand
Arria Perreault: well ... is there a time for publishing the transcript after the meeting
Callipygian Christensen: the transcript is usually published fairly quickly
Callipygian Christensen: but the transcript does not always include wording of motions fully
Callipygian Christensen: Rosie?
Rosie Gray: thank you
Rosie Gray: I was just going to point out that they are written in the Minutes
Arria Perreault: /me looking the rules of procedures of the RA
Rosie Gray: but you already mentioned that
Rosie Gray: done
Callipygian Christensen: Rosie - if wording is included fully, not by link to a forum post. then yes..its in there - the concern then becomes that a law is not reviewed by the SC until the Minutes are published and 48 hours has passed.
Callipygian Christensen: I am fine with thaat..I am not sure everyone is.
Callipygian Christensen: Coop?
Rosie Gray: oh I see
RogueGeek Cooperstone: I think it would be most helpful if the law could get put into the Forum, numbered and titled, with the text as passed, so there are no questions as to what the law should be. This would fix the majority of the housekeeping issues.
RogueGeek Cooperstone: Having to find and fight with and verify which copy was 'right' is a huge part of what took up the time of Law Review.
Callipygian Christensen: Coop..welcome to our world on every petition :)
RogueGeek Cooperstone: and I might add the law I wrote last term that was passed is still not numbered
RogueGeek Cooperstone: That's it.
Callipygian Christensen: To addres that - Tor has agreed to update the law list with those items from last term. Hannah is learning how to do so for this term I believe.
Widget Whiteberry: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: However - if we were to say 'not published until it's on the Portal' it would be months before a law is 'active'.
Callipygian Christensen: So - back to - what is reasonable to expect form the RA and from the SC - in publication for SC review.
Aliasi Stonebender: It's not just for us, though.
Aliasi Stonebender: The citizens need to be able to know the laws as well!
Callipygian Christensen: /me nods to Aliasi
Aliasi Stonebender: I can accept a standard less than the portal, a forum post might suffice.
Soro Dagostino: Agreed

Aliasi Stonebender: but it absolutely needs to be somewhere people can easily see it, not just buried in a transcript.
Callipygian Christensen: well the Minutes are a Forum post - they are in RA announcements, so easily accessible in one spot
Callipygian Christensen: I dont think its unresonable to ask all SC members to review the minutes and thus review any laws passed
Widget Whiteberry: /me raises hand
Callipygian Christensen: Widget?
Widget Whiteberry: Chat can be marked to make decisions easier to see. Like this ????????????????
Widget Whiteberry: or
Widget Whiteberry: /me MARKS THE CHAT
Widget Whiteberry: done
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..any further comments from SC members?
Aliasi Stonebender: not I.
Soro Dagostino: Issued seems resolved
Lilith Ivory: when I was LRA ages ago I prefered to have the exact wording of the motion right in front of the voting, just to make sure all RA members know exactly what they were voting for :)
Callipygian Christensen: ok..any further comment from those attending?
Callipygian Christensen: Then here is my suggested resolution to this:
Arria Perreault: I agree with Lilith
Callipygian Christensen: The Constitution only states that the SC must ratify all laws. The 48 hours time limit is self-imposed; the SC has always recognized that people want a clear indication a law is active in a reasonable timeframe.
Callipygian Christensen: To allow SC members a clear way to review, I sugges that 'publication' be considerd as 'the full wording of the motion included in the Minutes and published on the Forums'..
Callipygian Christensen: and that the 48 hour time limit remain, to ensure that the ratification is timely.
Callipygian Christensen: That will require a small amendment to out Procedures, that can be drafted and voted on at our next meeting.
Callipygian Christensen: *our
Soro Dagostino: Calli, may we move to the next item, my RL is closing in.
Callipygian Christensen: Does that seem reasonable? And I pose that question to those attending, as well as to the members of the SC.
Arria Perreault: Do the laws come in force when it is voted ?
Arria Perreault: we can discuss that in the forums maybe ...
RogueGeek Cooperstone: I would still ask for it to be carded out in a separate format.
Callipygian Christensen: No Arria - they come into force when the SC ratifys ( by not flagging for review or when a flagged law has been reviewed)
Arria Perreault: right
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..I will draft an amendment to our procedure and post it to discussion for any final comments.
Callipygian Christensen: I think this dsitributes the responsibility for publication and timely ratification fairly on both the RA and the SC.
Widget Whiteberry: carded ou?
Widget Whiteberry: out*
Callipygian Christensen: Ok..our final item today
RogueGeek Cooperstone: As in a properly formatted paragraph
Callipygian Christensen: Whether greeted with the opening of champagne or the donning of mourning clothes, my time as Dean is over.
Tanoujin Milestone: /me snickers
Callipygian Christensen: at the last meeting I called for nominations for Dean
Callipygian Christensen: the only member indicating a willingness to stand at this point is Aliasi
Callipygian Christensen: (who much to my surprise has never actually *been* Dean)
Soro Dagostino: /me raises hand.
Callipygian Christensen: Soro?
Soro Dagostino: I nominate Aliasi on a white ballot.
Arria Perreault: second
Callipygian Christensen: are there any other nominations?

Aliasi Stonebender: heh, yeah, I've been around everywhere else, and had a shot in ancient times. :P
Soro Dagostino: Call the question.
Callipygian Christensen: please vote on Aliasi Stonebender as the new Dean of the SC
Arria Perreault: aye
Soro Dagostino: AYE
Lilith Ivory: aye!
Arria Perreault: And a warm thank you to our former Dean !
Callipygian Christensen: (although a white ballot is uncontested and automatic election - we vote for the record here :)
Callipygian Christensen: Aye
Soro Dagostino: Congratulations to both Calli and Aliasi.
Callipygian Christensen: I will publsh Aliasi's sentenc..I mean 'election'..yeah..on the Forums :)
Lilith Ivory: /me applauds loud
Soro Dagostino: Gotta go RL/
Aliasi Stonebender: well, I guess that does it. Tremble in fear. :P
Arria Perreault: and congratulation to Aliasi :-)
Callipygian Christensen: thank you Soro!
RogueGeek Cooperstone: May God have mercy on your soul
Widget Whiteberry: /me laughs
Callipygian Christensen: there being no further business, I move to adjourn - with thanks to all SC members and to all citizens who have attended today!
Widget Whiteberry: Well done Calli
Arria Perreault: second
Widget Whiteberry: long live the SC
Arria Perreault: Thank you for chairing the meetings til today, Calli :-)
Rosie Gray: /me claps
Rosie Gray: ???????..? Applauds! ? ..???????..
Callipygian Christensen: I can't say its always been a pleasure Arria..but it has been an 'experience' lol
Arria Perreault: and all the hard work that goes with ...
RogueGeek Cooperstone: Yay.
Aliasi Stonebender: indeed. we'll have to discuss on how to do it, and I have to get used to starting the discussions.
Callipygian Christensen: umm..did anyone actually second and vote to adjourn?
Carissima Resident: Thanks for a brilliant introduction to Democracy in SL :-)
Arria Perreault: second
RogueGeek Cooperstone: It gets worse.
Callipygian Christensen: all in favour?
Arria Perreault: aye
Lilith Ivory: aye :)
Carissima Resident: :-D
Widget Whiteberry: /me goes off to check a hippo device
Lilith Ivory: for all who don?t know yet: Carissima is our newest citizen in CDS :)
Arria Perreault: welcome Carissima ?
Carissima Resident: :-)
Josephine Fotherington: Hello and welcome :-)
Carissima Resident: Thank you!
Callipygian Christensen: now can I start charging rental for these lovely chairs?

"The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it."
Terry Pratchett
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