Transcript of SC meeting, October 3rd, 2006, 1/3

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[16:57] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: oops sorry FR ![/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Shall we move to the rathaus?[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: ooh Diderz![/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: hi![/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: hello honourable colleagues[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: good to see you[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: the Rathaus is it?[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:58] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: er, we shall see about the "honourable" part [/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: indeed![/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: is dianne coming?[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: has anyone reported their failure to attend?[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: No, Diderot.[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: splendid[/color:2l1m212e]
[16:59] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I mean ? only you and FR confirmed their respective attendance.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: awww nice hair colour, Diderot [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: well in any case we should be enough to hold the meeting responsibly[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: lol[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: id it possible dianne is not getting ehr emails?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: thank you [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: after you[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: thank you Diderot [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau wonders what that new staircase was doing[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: agh.... I should wear something else when sitting down [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: *sigh*[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Now hmm[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: hehe[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Does anyone have those fancy recorders?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:01] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I don't see anything .. the clouds manage to cover details up pretty well[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: FR you're a scripter?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: I script here and there[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Of course he is ? you remember that he did our voting booth???[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: but no, I dont have a recording thinger[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: yes .. and that it was a great success[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:02] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: And what a mighty piece of programming that was [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Well, we'll use the old fashioned copy & paste[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: hmm I only have the "ViaEmail device" ... and that's really not what is called for here[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: aw. I have this one,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I'm supposed to be a betatester for it![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: well if nothing else comes from this meeting perhaps we'll still discover a few bugs[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:03] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok, you should all touch that thingy[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: I wish I had time to talk to Pat or Aliasi[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Yay. Cool [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Justice is probably also joining us,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and I think I should get a glass of water, just give me a minute[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: cool[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: certainly[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:04] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and then I'll thank you both for coming ? it truly was a long time since we met last[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:05] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: yeah[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:05] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: hey justice[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:05] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: hi[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:05] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: dont think i've been to an SC meeting before[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: hello Justice .. please have a seat and touch the big box to indicate consent to being recorded[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: don't worry .. there's not much of an established practice in terms of procedure that you will find yourself lacking in experience of ..[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: it's usually quite informal[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ah, hello, Justice, welcome![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: And please touch the recorder...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:06] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: Hi Gwyn[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:07] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok, I now declare this meeting open [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:07] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: To be swift,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:07] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: let's go to item one,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:07] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: as per the regulations and Constitition of Neufreistadt (or I should say "the Confederation of Democratic Simulators" now?)[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:07] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the Dean is supposed to serve a term for 6 months, and a new one elected by mid-term of the RA[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: or thereabouts [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: well I guess the renaming is part of the amendments that we are reviewing[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Yes, #3 on the agenda but which will be discussednext because the silly Dean has mixed up the numbers [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Sooooo[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: any nominees? [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:08] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: Dean?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: I nominate gwyneth[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I move to nominate Gwyneth Llewelyn for a new term as Dean of the SC[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: hmpf[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Grr[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I wanted to nominate Diderot,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: this was actually somehow talked among us[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: it would appear you have been pre-empted and outumbered[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: ... but that was sadly before your current limited availability time[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Hello Claude, welcome.... uh... I'm sure I saw you a second ago?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: I am currently also on limited avilabiity[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:09] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Yes, I was rather fearing that[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:10] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Just rezzed here.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:10] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: is it possible to run the chat log through a spellchecker first?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:10] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: For the record, I can spell, just not on SL.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:11] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: hehe[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:11] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Claude, please touch this weird recording box to give consent to be recorded[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:11] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, hmm, I guess you don't have any time for being the Dean, Diderot?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:11] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: well ...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:12] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Nice.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:12] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I am greatly honoured to be even considering in respect of a position of such responsibility to our community[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:12] [color=Black:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn admires Diderot's masterful skills at fancy rhetoric [/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:12] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: but I fear that if I were to accept such a proposal I would be unable to honour the commitments which I personally would feel were required of a person in that position[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: not only does it require time ..but the complexity of the superstructure we are building will to an even greater extent demand a dean, who is intimately familiar with the constitutional logic of the interdependency of our many governing institutions[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Oh my[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: yeah, someone who can draw a chart[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Oh, I forgot about that ? haha[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: venn diagrams, I think[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:13] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: let me upload it while Diderot speaks[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:14] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: and sadly ... our evolution down that avenue has accellerated greatly as of late ... coinciding with my limited availability ... thus I believe it would be irresponsible of me to accept such a post in the community when I cannot see any opening up in[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:14] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: the near future irt my RL obligations[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:14] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: a diagram?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:15] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: intersecting circles[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:15] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: yes, of cds's new and proposed structure[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:15] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: gwyn kindly gave me one to help me out with understanding cds's current state[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok, let's see if I can upload it here... anyway...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: the mentor instinct still runs deep [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I feel actually slightly disappointed,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: well of what will be cds's state if the act is confirmed[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: since I truly believe in a democracy where positions of power are rotated[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: But of course I understand you both perfectly,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:16] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and Dianne is also very limited in her availability[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I agree whole-heartedly ... it's just unfortunate circumstances really[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Awww Satchmo! Welcome[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype[/b:2l1m212e]: vote Satchmo![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I am sure that if we take care to replenish our numbers during this term it won't be long until an equally qualified candidate surfaces[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype[/b:2l1m212e]: public meeting? Can I sit in?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: Hi Stachmo![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: greetings Satchmo![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: Satchmo, even[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Satch![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: as long as you don't rez any self-replicating objects I think you should be fine[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype[/b:2l1m212e]: Don't mind me then, I'm just lurking[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:17] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Please sit down, and touch the fancy recorder to give consent that you allow us to misquote you publicly [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:18] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: thank you [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:18] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: All right, so, I guess I'll accept the duties of being Dean for another 6 months,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:18] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: while at the same time I will promise to add some more people to the SC[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau applauses[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: yay[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Indigo:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Patch's Funky Chat Logger 1.0.4: Sent.[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: No applauses really. One day, nobody will believe me any more when I tell them that I'm NOT holding a lifetime appointment [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Anyway, point two.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Black:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn tries to rez a prim[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: we should commission someone to craft you a diadem[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:19] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: hi Brian[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:20] [color=DarkSlateGray:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Brian Livingston[/b:2l1m212e]: Hiya, just staying out of the way [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:20] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: hello Brian[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:20] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Brian, welcome![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:21] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: And here goes 1 MByte of charts to add to your lag (sorry, I really did a very quick upload, no time to squeeze it more)[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau goes "ooooh"[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:21] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I've actually asked Ashcroft for some input on this[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:21] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Brian ? btw, please touch this recorder to indicate consent to be logged [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Indigo:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Patch's Funky Chat Logger 1.0.4: Now recording Brian Livingston[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ash sadly was a bit busy today, I think, since he didn't reply[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I might have missed some extra squiggly lines [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: I talked to ash a bit before this meeting, I think he needed to sleep[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: it *is* rather late over there[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: But basically this is what the government looks like these days [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: indeed[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:22] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Indeed, FR, I would have set this earlier,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: but I'm aware that Dianne wouldn't make it sooner, and you usually also can't[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Poor Diderot is an owl[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and so am I, soooo[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I took tomorrow off [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Not because of this?![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Gwyn... problem with the big chart.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: well it was just a matter of reshuffling some days off really![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Treasurer reports to the Exec Branch, not the AC.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:23] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Just one problem, Claude? Good [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:24] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ah yes[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:24] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Very good point. But it's appointed by the AC, right?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:24] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: I don't believe so.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:24] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Oh[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok, back to the drawing board [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau considers the dilemma of balancing transparency versus accountability[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer accepted your inventory offer.[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Well, my apologies for the incorrectnesses,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I really just had half an hour to do something[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: no apologies needed ... without this diagram we would be a lot worse off[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: She/he shall be appointed by the Chancellor, with the advice and consent of the RA, and shall jold their position until they may resign or removed for cause. Any such planned transition shall be of a duration of no fewer than 60 days to allow for reestab[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Well, a *wrong* diagram is usually worse than having none at all[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: even if it lacks an arrow or two ...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: thank you Claude. Yes, I should move the Treasury bit to under the Exec Branch[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Could you drop a copy or put it on the wiki?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: for version 2.0, I'll do that [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins accepted your inventory offer.[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:26] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ah, sure[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Since I've got a Mac, I don't have Visio, which is the ultimate tool for doing those,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I use the Mac "equivalent" which is OmniGraffle, so it might be hard to edit it[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: but I'll be gladly posting it somewhere[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: have you tried inkscape, gwyn?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ah yes... I should use it more, yes[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:27] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: At least it works under Linux, Mac, and Windows...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn makes a note to install Inkscape again[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Anyway guys[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The issue we have to discuss,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: is the very long Judiciary Act[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and if we can find anything that is blatantly unconstitutional with it.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:28] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: As you might guess,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:29] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I was sort of dragged to most of the meetings where this was discussed...[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:29] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: There's also the exec branch veto.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:29] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: ... in a sense, to provide input, make sure people wouldn't be driving it too far from the acceptable things[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:29] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Right, Claude, thank you[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:29] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: And I'm sure you'll find a few more glitches [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:30] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Oops. We've managed to get Diderot asleep[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: I'm not asleep just listening intently with closed eyes[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:30] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: aw[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:30] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, what is the major departure from our things here,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the Exec Branch is very peaceful, and that was passed, some time ago ?[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the RA just delegated powers,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and the Guild as well[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, there is no problem with that.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The Judiciary is an entirely new beast.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The judicial fnctions were thrown in into teh SC,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:31] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: without any provision for procedures ? the SC was supposed to figure them out by themselves[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: which, I might add, we did NOT do[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, unlike what happened with teh Exec Branch,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: where powers were "simply delegated",[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the Judiciary is really "new"[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: It keeps a lot of connections with all the other branches,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: but philosophically, it's NOT a part of "government" per se[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:32] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The SC, however, remains with two of its traditional functions:[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:33] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: 1) The constitutional court,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:33] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: which is what 90% of the people still associate with the SC anyway,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:33] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and 2) the "Court of Last Appeal"[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:33] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: you also have a role in judicial appointments[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:34] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Where actually the SC may not revert a judgement based on interpretation of laws, but really just on constitutional (and founding documents') basis[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:34] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Yes, we sort of "jump-start" all the system [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:34] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Which, if there is agreement here, we'll do next[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Briefly, for you guys, who have been "away" during most of this process,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][i:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype raises hand[/i:2l1m212e][/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: (and I'm glad we have Claude, Brian, and Justice here ? they'll be able to fill in the details that I might get wrong)[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: ... and yes, Satchmo? [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype[/b:2l1m212e]: haha I was raising my hand as "away"[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: awww lol[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:35] [color=Navy:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Satchmo Prototype[/b:2l1m212e]: if I had a question I would blurt it out [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:36] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Fair enough [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:36] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, there are basically three "bodies" inside the Judiciary[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:36] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Let's take the "Judges of the Common Jurisdiction" first[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:36] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: which are the most visible part of it anyway.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:37] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: They are a body headed by a Chief Judge,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:37] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and a meritocracy, not unlike the SC[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:37] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The difference is ? they qualify new judges,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:37] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: but they don't appoint them [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:38] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The Chief Judge will also hand out the cases to be judged[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:38] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Now, the Judiciary Comission[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:38] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: in essence, they're the bureaucratic bit of the Judiciary[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:38] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I forgot to add a new bubble, the "Civil Service", which should be under the Exec Branch [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:39] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, the Exec Branch has their bureaucrats,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:39] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the Judiciary has their own )[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:39] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The Judiciary Comission is also headed by a Chair[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: We'll appoint the first one[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Hello Redak and Dnate ? please touch the fancy recorder to allow us to record you [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: oops Dnate just got scared and disconnected [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: hehe[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=DarkSlateGray:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Brian Livingston[/b:2l1m212e]: Welcome [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:40] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: during the long-winded discussion,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: it was the chart Gwyn, its kinda scary[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: aye[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: people were afraid of creating another self--appointing meritocracy[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: (and I totally agree Justice )[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:41] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: although Judges are the best ones to be qualified to say who should be a judge and who shouldn't be one,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:42] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: actually, it bis the Public Judiciary Scrutiny Panel that selects the Judges that will serve,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:42] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: from a pool that is presented by the Judges of the Common Jurisdiction themselves.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:42] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The PJSP is an elected body.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:42] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The Judiciary Act states that their election will occur during the time that the RA gets elected[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:42] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: However,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:43] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: it's not a "governmental body" ? no factions are allowed to participate[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:43] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: it has no function in government except for choosing judges,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:43] [color=DarkGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Justice Soothsayer[/b:2l1m212e]: aye, there's the rub[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:43] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and, of course, to oversee that the Judges are behaving properly. So the citizens complain to the PSJP if they are getting misjudged [/color:2l1m212e]
[17:44] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Ok, as Justice so well put it,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:44] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: the only "glitch" we might have here,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:44] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: is about the way the PJSP gets elected[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:44] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and who can be a member of it.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:45] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Perhaps to simplify things, I might explain *why* this sub-branch was created.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:45] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Originally, it simply didn't exist.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:45] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Members of the RA, however, wanted to deal with an apparent paradox:[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:45] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: - how to get the citizens (or their elected representatives) to have a saying in the judiciary[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: - while at the same time keeping the Judges impartial![/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: So, the easy way out ? getting Judges directly elected,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: was seen as giving parties the opportunity to select their own judges.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: The reverse ? allowing Judges to appoint themselves, after they were qualified,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: would mean a conservative body,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:46] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: a true meritocracy[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: without any public interference. So, that wasn't good either.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=DarkSlateBlue:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Claude Desmoulins[/b:2l1m212e]: Must go.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: I think it was Moon that first suggested a "non-governmental" body that qualified the judges,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:2l1m212e]: indeed[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=Sienna:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Flyingroc Chung[/b:2l1m212e]: see you claude[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:47] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: and another "non-governmental" one that selected the ones that would serve[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:48] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: After much discussion,[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:48] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: this was the last model that the RA unanimously agreed with.[/color:2l1m212e]
[17:48] [color=Black:2l1m212e][b:2l1m212e]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2l1m212e]: Now, we *do* have an elected body of representatives ? but it is one that is political[/color:2l1m212e]

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[17:48] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: speaking as to legislative intent, there wasn't a whole lot of discussion about the PJSP[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:49] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Well ... yes, not as long as all the other issues, I agree [/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:49] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Also, most of that discussion was on the forums ? the RA didn't spent much time with it in session[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:49] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: The issue was certainly raised, though![/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Questions so far?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: no[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: NO!?!?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: not as it pertains to the facts of the matter[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][i:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn is shocked[/i:3dkki7lj][/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:50] [color=DarkSlateGray:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Brian Livingston[/b:3dkki7lj]: Sounds good so far[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Whew[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=DarkSlateGray:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Brian Livingston[/b:3dkki7lj]: In terms of accuracy[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: so the PJSP[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: if I may?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Please — you have the floor [/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: thank you, Dean[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=Indigo:3dkki7lj][i:3dkki7lj]Patch's Funky Chat Logger 1.0.4: Sent.[/i:3dkki7lj][/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:51] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][i:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn bows gracefully[/i:3dkki7lj][/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: as I have understood it .. it was a concern of the RA that members of the PJSP be impartial in their decisions regarding the selection of judges[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:52] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][i:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*[/i:3dkki7lj][/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: and it was felt that the most feasible way to achieve this was by way of direct election from the electorate of candidates, who lost their right to be a member of a political faction by being elected[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: so we demand of citizens that they give up one right in return for enjoying a privilege .. with the stated aim of ensuring impartiality of decisions[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:54] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Yes... not unlike the same argument that is often employed for serving at the SC or at the deciding levels of the Guild.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:55] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: it seems to me that asking a citizen to give up a right should be based on a meritable case for there being a connection between the enjoyment of that right and its undue influence on the greater principle that we are seeking to pursue by eliminating it[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: in other words ... if we want to ask of citizens that they can not organise politically if they want to sit on the PJSP ... there should be a well-founded assumption that being in a political faction at the same time might adversely impact the ..[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... impartiality of one's decisions in relation to serving on that body ...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: it is understandable why there are provisions preventing citizens from serving in more than one government body at the same time since by virtue of our impeachment mechanisms these might enter into conflict with each other ...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: eliminating citizens possibility to be a member of two factions at the same time seems equally meritable on the basis that factions are meant to be in opposition to each other ..[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:57] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: mm hmm[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I am not sure I see as solid a case for imputing there being a connection between being politically active and one's decisions regarding the selection of judges being partial ..[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: as I see it there are many other "irrational" factors that might well influence one's choice of judges ... such as whether or not a particular judge judged in one's favour in the last case that one was involved in .. and I do not see that any provisions[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... have been made to address that potential problem?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[17:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: so to summarise[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:00] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ah ? I might add to that after your summary[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: membership of a faction is but one "irrational" basis upon which decisions can be based for members of the PJSP .. there are other "irrational" bases who might bias the members and they have not been addressed ...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I find it difficult to see why we ask citizens who want to sit in the PJSP to give up their right to be active politically if we do not at the same time take proportionate measures to ensure that their decision are not influenced by other "irrational"[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... foundations[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: that's it[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:01] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: thank you[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:01] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Justice wanted a word first...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:01] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: but Diderot, the question is not whether the action of the RA in creating a factionless PSJP is *wise*,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:02] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: but whether it is constitutional (in other words, inconsistent with our principles).[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:02] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Oh, very good point.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:02] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: yes... so here, I think our role as the SC is[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:03] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: to see whether this act violates our founding documents[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:03] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: specifically, I think the UNDHR[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:03] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I think two issues were brought up in the forums[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:03] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: yes, and if some part of it does, and other parts do not, to either veto or re-write the offending part(s)[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:04] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: (hello Ranma, and I'm glad you got that glitch sorted out, Moon told me about it ?please touch the recorder to give consent to being logged )[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:04] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: hi Ranma[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: since it seems we've gone to free form I'll take the liberty of responding...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:04] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][i:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer will be quiet now[/i:3dkki7lj][/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I am well aware that our only responsibility is to assess constitutionality ... I apologise for not being sufficiently clear in my statement to that effect[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:05] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: basically my case is this .. I believe that we are asking certain citizens to give up a right in order to obtain a privilege .. the right is their right to organise politically ... that's a major right ..[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:05] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: so one is that disallowing membership in factions violate the right to free speech[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:05] [color=Navy:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Satchmo Prototype[/b:3dkki7lj]: sorry had a minor bombing incident at Sheep Island I had to respond to [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: that might be defensible if the membership was .. well .. something esoteric .. not necessary or vital to participate in .. however .. this body could be argued to be rather vital to the well functioning of a legal system ... something in which every[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:06] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: another is that it violates the right to free association (what Diderot is referring to, I think)[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: citizen has a direct and vital interest in preserving .. so to ask of our citizens that they give up their political rights simply to ensure that our judiciary remains balanced (something they should be entitled to expect without giving up any rights)[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:07] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: right, diderot[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:07] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: is quite a harsh requirement and in my view it does not seem proportional when considering how other factors possibly inhibiting the judgement of the PJSP members are not similarly regulated ..[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: there has to be some proportionality[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I will add that article 21 of the udhr says:[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: (3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting proc[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: edures[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: .[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:08] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: afk[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:09] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I think the way we ensure that the will of the people is the basis of our government[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:09] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: is our election system[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:09] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: which includes ranking members of our own faction to represent us in the govt[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:10] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: so, the question we should pose ourself is, are we asking people to give up some fundamental rights[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:10] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: (which I think diderot is saying yes)[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:10] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: and then is giving up that right a reasonable[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:11] [color=DarkRed:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]traiano Peralta[/b:3dkki7lj]: ENOUGH.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:11] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: er is giving up that right reasonable, given our objectives[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:11] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: take a seat, traiano, if you wish to listen to us.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:12] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Well[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:12] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: my own reasoning is that "membership in a faction" is quite a different thing than "actively participating in a government body"[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:12] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: If it weren't,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:12] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: by now I would have expected the RA to outlaw, say, my own participation in the CSDF[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:13] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Or yours in the ex-MPP, FR [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:13] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I'm still DPU, I think[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:13] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:13] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Yes, you are [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:14] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: So I think that what you would recommend is that the Judiciary Act should pass if and only if the requirement of membership in a faction is removed?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:14] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: if the parenthetical is removed[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:14] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... although I assume that you will still require PSJP members NOT to serve in office elsewhere in Government![/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:14] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok, let me check it again then, FR[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:14] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: " (not being members of, or affiliated with, any political faction in the Confederation of Democratic Simulators)"[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok. thank you ![/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: either that or that similar measures are taken to ensure that members are not influenced by other interests that might make them partial in their decisions[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: my other problem with this parenthetical is that "affiliation" may be too broadly interpreted[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: as the UNDHR says in article 29, 2: In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of othe[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ah yes. Patroklus, for instance, is voluntarily asking members of government to list their business interests, in NFs or outside it.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: rs and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:16] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:16] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: so would a member of the RA be eligible to serve on the Public Scrutiny Judicial PAnel?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:16] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Good question,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:16] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I fail to see the case has been made for any of these interests being maintained by the "prohibition" when there has not been a similar interest in the other ways in which a member might be partial[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:16] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: btw ? I've re-read the whole text quite often, and, for instance, a Judge can serve in the SC without problems,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:17] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: the Judge simply cannot seat on the SC in the collective of judges, when it is in session of teh Court of the SC.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:17] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Diderot & FR, would you care to answer to Justice's question? [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:18] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: In my mind, I can only add a "principle of similarity" ? if SC members are not allowed to be RA members (and vice-versa), the same should apply to other branches.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:18] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: but SC members can be judges[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I do not see how the constitution would be inherently threatened by not stripping citizens, who are members of the RA from their right to sit on the PJSP[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:18] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: So, I'd say that Judges and members of teh Judiciary should not be able to sit on teh RA, although this Act certainly doesn't state that *clearly*[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:19] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Aaah Diderot,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:19] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: if you argue that way,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:19] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: what would be the point of having a PSJP? [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:19] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... one surely could simply have the RA appoint the judges, right?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:19] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: However, that is not for the SC to discuss.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:20] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: if we dont have 3 factionless members of the PSJP in the current bill, the RA does appoint judges[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:20] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ah hah. Indeedy, oh fellow primate [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:20] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: constitutionally, you cant serve in two brnaches of government at the same time[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:20] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Very well pointed out [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:20] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: unless that hasbeeen removed also[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:21] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: ahh[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:21] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: this is a *new* branch, no?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:21] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: this is a *new* branch, no?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: please notice that my answer to Justice is not the reason why I think this bill is potentially problematic in relation to the principles of the constitution.. I simply answered to the extent to which I have a mandate as a member of the SC ... there might[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:22] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: or is it under: "Citizens may not serve simultaneously in the Representative and Philosophic branch."[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: well be a reason for wanting to prevent members of the RA from sitting on the PJSP but in that case it would need to be elaborated on .. so far I can only see a political motivation for doing so .. and it is not my prerogative to comment on that[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:22] [color=DarkOrange:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Ranma Tardis[/b:3dkki7lj]: pardon me being called to a Mentor meeting[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:23] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: as far as I undrstand it, this judiciary is a separate "branch" of government, yes?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:24] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: Constitutionally, I see no conflict with members of the RA service as judges or members of the PSJP. Judges cannot declare a legislative act unconstitutional, only th eSC can do so.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:24] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: was the exclusivity section amended in this act?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:24] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Yes, very recently[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:24] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Meaning: no, it wasn't on the first proposals[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:25] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I mean[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:25] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: article V, section 2 of the consitution[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:25] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Aw sorry FR[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:25] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: I'm silly.No, that stands[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:26] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: And yes, this is supposed to be a "new" branch for all purposes[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:26] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: So yes, members of the RA technically can't sit as members of any of the other branches[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:27] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: That's what I meant that technically a Judge could be a member of the SC (except where there are reasons for conflict, and teh judiciary Act states those)[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:27] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: sorry can you quote for me the relevant passage?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:27] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: ... but not a RA member, unless that section of teh Const. is scratched.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:27] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: well it really depends on whether the judiciary is technically under[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: the philosophic branch[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: the only quotation I can find is an explicit reference to the three pre-existing branches of government[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: Citizens may not serve simultaneously in the Representative and Philosophic branch. Members of the Representative Assembly and the Scientific Council may be members of the Artisanal Collective but may not vote nor hold elected positions in the Artisan[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: al branch.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Hmm[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:28] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: under the Judiciary Act, a new article creates the judiciary. I see no explicit prohibition of members of the RA serving either as judges or as members of the PSJP (except for the fact that as written members of factions cannot be members of the PSJP).[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:29] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: right[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:29] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: so, under this act, RA member *can* be judges[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: so, if you find the requirement that PSJP members must be faction-less is unconstitution, I'll offer myself up as a member of the PSJP to keep an eye on the judiciary.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: just not a member of the PJSP[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: *unconstitutional[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: anyway ... can we reach a sustenable position in relation to this matter on the basis of the conversation so far?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: well here are our choices[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:30] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Yes, I think that actually we can. [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:31] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: 1.) we can accept the document as is[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:31] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: 2.) we can reject it outright[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:31] [color=Olive:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Thor Forte[/b:3dkki7lj]: hi hi[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:31] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: 3.) we can omit the parenthetical -- but the problem justice describes will arise[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:32] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: hi Thor, welcome, and please touch the cube to give consent to record the log [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:32] [color=Olive:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Thor Forte[/b:3dkki7lj]: there we go[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:32] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: and then, we can do whatever gwyn thinks [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:32] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: 4) would be omitting the parenthtical but requiring somewhere to disallow members of the RA to be members of teh judiciary.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:32] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: and pfft FR[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:33] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I will have to raise an issue that ashcroft brought to me while I was talking to him about this[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:33] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I will have to raise an issue that ashcroft brought to me while I was talking to him about this[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:33] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Please do.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:33] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: he believes that removing the non-partisanship requirement[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:34] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: will deprive us of the right to an impartial judiciary[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:34] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: What does he ground his "belief" on? [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:34] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: He's a logical and rational one, so I'm sure he gave you a good reason for that.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:35] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: hm[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:35] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: this was a fairly long conversation, I'm afraid whatever I'll say will misrepresent him[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:35] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: i hate to speak for Ashcroft, but I think he believes any partisanship in selection of judges may lead to judges who are prone to favor the government too much.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:36] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: though I think his concern is overwrought[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:36] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: since judges cannot declare an action of the RA to be onconstitutional.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:36] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Oh, I think the issue is more about corruption, really.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:37] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: ie. members of the RA being under judicial processes, but having "friends" at the PSJP to remove judges from office at will, and placing "friendlier" judges there who will rule those cases with a gentler hand.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:38] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: well the Cosa Nostra could be doing the same unhindered with the proposed provisions[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Agreed.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: that explains the horse's head found in my house[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: lol[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: so do we have a consensus here?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: It seems that the consensus is propsoing a rewriting of that parenthetical,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:39] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: it seems that at least 2 of you think the paranthetical restriction of the PSJP to the factionless is unconstitutional?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: and placing the requirement that no RA member should serve on the Judiciary.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Is that right?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Well, and creating a new branch allowing members of other branches to have roles on both [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: *active roles I mean[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: yes that would be better in line with what I perceive to be the principles underlying our constitution[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: I think I am ageeing with diderot[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:40] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: *shock*[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Indeed, I actually thought that the wording was "No member of the RA should sit on any of the branches" but it names the two others explicitly[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: so it should name all of them[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: yes[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: RA members can serve as nonvoting members of the AC[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Although there might be an issue with the Exec Branch But, alas, nobody in the SC mentioned that when there was time.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:41] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ah yes[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: so they could be technically n on-voting emmbers in the PJSP[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Which would be rather pointless.... but fine[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: get a free lunch[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: you could sit in in more meetings![/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: oh my![/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: where do I sign up?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:42] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: lol[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:43] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok. Do we agree on those two things:[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:43] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: or rather, three:[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:43] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: what about SC members sitting on the PSJP? That's not prohibited under the current bill.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:44] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: The SC won't veto the bill as unconstitutional, if the RA is willing to eliminate the parenthetical and add a further article to prevent RA members to hold office (with full powers) in the Judiciary[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:44] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ah, good point.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:44] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Or AC members ;:D[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:44] [color=DarkGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3dkki7lj]: can;t you just delete the parenthetical under your powers to re-write?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:44] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Oooh well[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: we don't like that power much[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: well, we can rewrite, then resubmit[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: the power to rewrite was never employed in our history [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: What a terrible precedent [/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Sienna:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3dkki7lj]: then the RA will still ahve to consider it, and amend it as they think[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: All right.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: I'm willing to do taht,[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: *that[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: which will mean that we'll have to postpone #3 unfortunately.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:45] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: ie. appointing the candidates.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: I can concur with that quite possibly .. but beforehand I have one technical question to the submitted bill, which I was hoping some of you other scrutinisers might possibly help me with?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:46] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Please, Diderot, let's hear it.[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: the question of setting the fees charged for providing court services[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:46] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Ok...[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: am I right in understanding that it is the sole prerogative of the JC chairman to set those?[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3dkki7lj]: let me see if I can find the relevant passage[/color:3dkki7lj]
[18:47] [color=Black:3dkki7lj][b:3dkki7lj]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3dkki7lj]: Hmm[/color:3dkki7lj]

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[18:48] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: I was just seeing that teh Chair of the Judicial Comission would be responsible to administer the budget for the Judiciary,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:48] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: not that the Chair can set the fees for court service. Let me read some more...[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:48] [color=DarkGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3gwg0dug]: I think the RA could adopt a schedule of fees if needed[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:48] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: yes I assume that must be it .. either that or the passage about administering court houses for the purpose of holding trials[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:48] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Oh yes ? that's what I meant, Justice[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: it's left open for the RA to decide.[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: I assumed as much, but I have to check it...[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: the reason why I'd like to have that clarified is that in my view it would be an avenue open to possible abuse .. i.e. by setting the fees very high it would be possible to deprive poor citizens of justice[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Well,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: remember, the Guild will be able to veto it [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:49] [color=DarkGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3gwg0dug]: don;t deprive anyone of justice![/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: and lol Justice [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: hmm okay so you don'[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: don't have to be rich as long as you provide either "services or goods to the community"[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: What I mean, Diderot, is that fees, like taxes, are set by the RA[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: o a budget[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: *on a budget[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: anyway it's a hypothtetical .. if it's set by the RA then they will be accountable[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: which has to be ratified by the Guild (unless things change)[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: to the electorate .. which is fine by me[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:51] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Indeed, precisely[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:51] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Also, this Judiciary Act implictly requires from the RA that it sets a budget for it,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:51] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: a budget where things like promotion, education, and the Judges' salaries are drawn from.[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:51] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: of course, teh budget can initially be L$0 [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:52] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: All right. Would either of you care to write the final rewriting ? And post it under the forums?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: at the moment none of us are completely clear in the head to undertake that I imagine ..[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:53] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: ROFL[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: but if it can be undertaken by tomorrow I guess it should be managable[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:53] [color=DarkGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3gwg0dug]: isn't it just eliminating the parenthetical and including prohibits RA members from serving in the judiciary and PSJP?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: unless you feel capable of doing it now FR by virtue of your time zone?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Ah, the poor Dean. Can't shake herself lose from her duties [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: unfortunately I have to go in 5 minutes[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: I have to prepare for a class I'm teaching[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: All right, guys, I'll do it,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: and add a few explanations (highlights from Diderot's words)[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:54] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: And we can table #3 after the RA meets again.[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: I hope you realise that you'll be requested soon to attend *another* SC meeting [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Since the RA meets every Saturday morning,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: should we schedule it now already?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: would you like to suggest a date?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: I'm available on Sunday[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: (yes Diderot)[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: I can probably make it at the same time next week[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:55] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Sunday would be fine for me as well, but FR is often unavailable on Sundays[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: ah yes, Monday is coumbus day[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: what about Dianne?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Columbus Day? [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: I'm afraid I may be out of town[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: yes, Columbus Day[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: But you'll be back on Tuesday?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: yes[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:56] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Well... I'd like to ask if you could make the meeting earlier, FR[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:57] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: it would be best for Diderot and myself,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:57] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: although I have no idea about Dianne![/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: it would be best for the citizens who have to suffer from our decisions![/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:57] [color=Sienna:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Flyingroc Chung[/b:3gwg0dug]: hm, around 2:00pm slt would work[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: (flawed decisions I meant to imply - from the night hawk routine)[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: What sayeth you, Diderot? Can you make it on Tuesday at 2 PM SL time?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: tongue in cheek naturally[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: hehe[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: that's roughly 2AM CET right?[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: No,[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: 23:00 CET [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: aah 23 yippie! sorry[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: see how my brain is malfunctioning[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Yes [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: 23 PM is perfect[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Ok, set [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: ehm 11 PM[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: aye, 11 PM CET, 23:00 [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Well, thanks for coming [/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: And let's adjourn.[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Diderot Mirabeau[/b:3gwg0dug]: thank you for suffering me[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=DarkGreen:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Justice Soothsayer[/b:3gwg0dug]: thanks for letting me sit in[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=DarkSlateGray:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Brian Livingston[/b:3gwg0dug]: Same Here[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: Aw the meetings are public, Justice.[/color:3gwg0dug]
[18:59] [color=Black:3gwg0dug][b:3gwg0dug]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3gwg0dug]: *and Brian[/color:3gwg0dug]