Bitter Ashcroft - A look from January 2007

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Bitter Ashcroft - A look from January 2007

Post by Sleazy_Writer »

Through a message in the LGSG ("A destruction of justice"), Ashcroft let us know of his post on the slhomepage.com forums [url:7p8qy5tx]http://forums.slhomepage.com/showthread ... 3#post2893[/url:7p8qy5tx]

Here, he writes how things went, from his perspective, and in bold:
[i:7p8qy5tx]"Anybody who is ever tempted to join the CDS and undertake any work for them (whether related to a judicial system or not) - for goodness' sake, whatever you do, don't! There is a very high chance that hours of your work will be wasted by the irresponsible people who run it changing their mind."[/i:7p8qy5tx]

In the LGSG group message he writes:
[i:7p8qy5tx]"[b:7p8qy5tx]I strongly advice people to stay away from the 'Confederation'[/b:7p8qy5tx], and certainly not invest any time or effort there, lest it be wasted."[/i:7p8qy5tx]

I think this needs a response from us.

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Re: Bitter Ashcroft - A look from January 2007

Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

I like this part of the memo especially:
[quote="Ashcroft Burnham":2eej6den] Last edited by Ashcroft Burnham : Yesterday at 08:50 PM. Reason: Perfecting.[/quote:2eej6den]

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

Hahah, that made me smile too :-)

I think his (biased?) LGSG announcement especially requires a comment from our side .. His personal disappointment shouldn't scare people away from the CDS.

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Post by Desmond Shang »

I just read this, and it's a sad day for everyone. We are all to blame, me included; I am certain of it.

I don't see any irresponsibility (from each of our own perspectives) here. What I see is human nature writ large.

Say what you will, Ashcroft is/was an inspiration and allowed a lot of rocky ground on the way to justice be traversed.

The questions are now on the table:

-What amount of executive oversight is right for a judiciary?

-What degree of professionalism is required?

-What philosophy informs a judicial system?

The last question has piqued my interest greatly. So much so that I'll give Neufreistadt / CDS a chance to 'beat me to it' if they so choose.

Caledon will have a bill of Avatar Rights added to its covenant, in weeks, not months.

It is 98% finished and I'm starting to pass it around to people in Caledon for review; it has already been reviewed by a professional expert in constitutional law. It is designed to expand upon, not limit, the freedoms that everyone enjoys.

Avatar rights are designed to frame the sort of justice one might find in Caledon. Understandably, as there are no 'checks and balances' against me (save for all the landed gentry leaving!) it is not as strong a document as it might be. Regardless, I shall do my best to honour the letter and spirit of it.

It has been inspired by everyone in Caledon, especially those who were shunned or banned elsewhere due to their avatar form, or by their opinions expressed on forums. Also inspired by everyone in Neufreistadt/CDS, by Ashcroft, by Prokofy and others. Perhaps not in the way they might expect - I disagree with many of you strongly. But nonetheless there are rights that should be upheld.

May the debate continue - like it or not, Ashcroft was/is an important part of your history, and the search for justice on a grid sorely lacking it.

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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="Desmond Shang":2n46y595]Caledon will have a bill of Avatar Rights added to its covenant, in weeks, not months.[/quote:2n46y595]
Allow me to take the opportunity to congratulate you on this very important innovation in the governance of Caledon and indeed in Second Life at large.

I assume you will at the same time be establishing an institution to uphold these rights independently of your executive power? This is of course just speculation on my side but it seems that a "citizens' council" with rotating membership based on volunteering empowered to consider appeals from citizens of (your) executive decisions with due reference to how the decision infringes on their rights could fit the bill?

It seems to me that such an approach might indeed work very well for Caledon provided that you can find enough people interested in participating of course. Incidentally this approach is quite similar to what I have been proposing since last summer for CDS. That may say more about my lack of imagination than it may say about your initiative of course.

[quote="Desmond Shang":2n46y595]It is designed to expand upon, not limit, the freedoms that everyone enjoys.[/quote:2n46y595]
I'm interested to have this elaborated eventually. My approach - as most recently [url=http://forums.neufreistadt.info/viewtop ... 5:2n46y595]elaborated upon[/url:2n46y595]in the Simplicity Party sub-forum on January 16th - takes as a point of departure the UDHR and would aim to further specify the circumstances under which those rights apply in the context of Second Life, prioritising rights relative to each other and in some instances bluntly state that these rights are not relevant in a virtual context.

I guess then that the question of whether your proposal expands or limits the spectrum of rights enjoyed has to be judged relative to your explicit point of departure.

[quote="Desmond Shang":2n46y595]Avatar rights are designed to frame the sort of justice one might find in Caledon. Understandably, as there are no 'checks and balances' against me (save for all the landed gentry leaving!) it is not as strong a document as it might be. Regardless, I shall do my best to honour the letter and spirit of it.[/quote:2n46y595]
Oh, so it is going to be more along the lines of a potentially toothless "gentleman's agreement", then? Ah well, I guess it is a start. And undoubtedly once it is in place if there is a real interest in it your landed gentry will push to have an independent entity evalulate your performance relative to it.

[quote="Desmond Shang":2n46y595]I'll give Neufreistadt / CDS a chance to 'beat me to it' if they so choose.[/quote:2n46y595]
Thanks for the challenge. However, I believe we can all agree that democracies are (much) slower in decisionmaking than autocracies as their primary goal is to produce legitimacy rather than to arrive at conclusions quickly, make a profit or similar. So I don't think there's any chance of us 'winning' such a race. I am sure however that we will derive much benefit from being inspired by your approach.

Reason for edit: Perfecting

Last edited by Diderot Mirabeau on Tue Jan 30, 2007 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Diderot Mirabeau »

[quote="TOPGenosse":31efep0x]I think his (biased?) LGSG announcement especially requires a comment from our side .. His personal disappointment shouldn't scare people away from the CDS.[/quote:31efep0x]
I agree fully with that last sentiment of yours. However, as I see it there is no dispute between Ashcroft and those entities known as "the government of CDS." Rather, there seems to be a dispute between Ashcroft and the way our democracy functions. This is not something that our government should involve itself in though.

As you say one person's personal disappointment should not scare people away from the CDS. I am however confident that most people will be able to ascertain from the strong rhetoric that the writer's judgement may not be entirely seperated from his emotional involvement in the dispute and thus endeavour to seek more facts about the dispute leading to the author's grievances. Anyone feeling sufficiently informed about the CDS on the basis of one aggrieved (ex-)citizen's opinions to form his/her opinion about our community seems in my view to not be worth wasting any effort on

Rather, our government should in my view engage in an offensive public relations campaign not specifically aimed at addressing or debunking the criticism of one aggrieved (ex-)citizen but aimed at making more SL residents aware of the possiblities offered by involving oneself in a democratically governed community. This in my view would be one of the primary goals of a CDS-employed PIO. However, it's been rather quiet on that front lately to the best of my knowledge.

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":354dt312]and thus endeavour to seek more facts[/quote:354dt312] I hope you're right about this. Anyway two people in LGSG have already pointed out mr. Burnhams behaviour to the other group members.

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":354dt312]PR campaign (...) This in my view would be one of the primary goals of a CDS-employed PIO. However, it's been rather quiet on that front lately to the best of my knowledge.[/quote:354dt312]Agree. Not that I'm 'demanding' anything from our PIO, but it would certainly be good to see what is on the top of his PIO-agenda.

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Post by Claude Desmoulins »

Congratulations to Caledon on this achievement. As has already been pointed out, such a thing has been discussed regularly in the CDS, going back at least as far as Kendra Bancroft.

Diderot hits the nail on the head , I think, when he raises the issue of enforcement. A decision was made not to draft such a thing in the absence of a mechanism to enforce its provisions. The question of what sort of enforcement mechanism we will have has captured our collective attention for some time now.

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Post by Desmond Shang »

Don't congratulate me yet - it's not quite out of the bag. It is critical that I get it as right as I can. Nobody signed up to pay for less rights.

Also critical that I don't leave the impression that we'll become a playground for griefers due to 'rights'. We won't. The right to swing one's fist stops at someone else's chin, and I'll spell out as reasonably as I can where the lines will be drawn.

[quote="Diderot Mirabeau":3q3c2bxk]Oh, so it is going to be more along the lines of a potentially toothless "gentleman's agreement", then? Ah well, I guess it is a start. And undoubtedly once it is in place if there is a real interest in it your landed gentry will push to have an independent entity evalulate your performance relative to it.[/quote:3q3c2bxk]

Indeed, a potentially toothless "gentleman's agreement." Yet, I've been granting these rights all along for almost a year now almost perfectly (just one exception). They simply haven't been documented. The reaction on the street in Caledon may well be "ah, sure, but we already figured things worked that way."

Believe it or not, the landed may well find that [i:3q3c2bxk]less[/i:3q3c2bxk] rights act in their favour in many scenarios. They hold considerable sway, in raw economic terms. For instance, over 1/3 of Caledon's land area is under the direct control of only five avatars, and 94% is under the direct control of everyone combined.

You should not be surprised to find that an established aristocracy with [i:3q3c2bxk]very[/i:3q3c2bxk] real economic power has its own goals, motives and desires. I tread most carefully, because I must.

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Post by Aliasi Stonebender »

[quote="Desmond Shang":33vf36au]
You should not be surprised to find that an established aristocracy with [i:33vf36au]very[/i:33vf36au] real economic power has its own goals, motives and desires. I tread most carefully, because I must.[/quote:33vf36au]

All governments exist because of the consent of the governed, however coerced that consent may or may not be. In this sense, the difference is Caledon's is primarily economic; the CDS has this factor, but also a way less drastic than "do this or I'll leave!" to get things done.

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Post by Beathan »

A Modern British Barrister (to a tune by Gilbert and Sullivan)

I am the very model of a venom-spitting hypocrite;
The CDS wanted Justice so I thought I’d have a go at it
So I modeled laws from England, and wrote up my procedural
Codes and rules and processes and other things juridical.

As posters on the forum go, I'm really not the gentlest
Considering I'm self-righteous and an unrepentant legalist;
Regarding legal realism, I’m teeming with a lot of news,
But I do hate American and other "anti-British" views.

I’m good at legal reasoning; my logic is impeccable;
Unfortunately, my greatest thoughts all proved unelectable,
But I won’t dwell on failure, or other errors I won’t admit,
I am the very model of a venom-spitting hypocrite.

I know the laws of England well, King Arthur’s and the modern too,
I can use special pleading, ad hominum, and Tu quoque;
And if I disagree with you, I’ll beat you with grandiloquence
And bury your ideas in my labyrinth lack of common sense.

And if you don’t agree with me, that just means you’re an idiot
Who cannot see the truth I write in postings most articulate;
But that’s a loss to all of you, I damn you with my parting ass
As I move on to somewhere else where people are more upper class;

And as I go, I'll tell the world that you never respected me
When all I wanted is a place where all would do as I decree;
And welcome me as the Christ of a novel legal holy writ,
Which, I guess, proves me to be a venom-spitting hypocrite.

Beathan

Last edited by Beathan on Wed Jan 31, 2007 7:22 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Post by Carolyn Saarinen »

[quote="TOPGenosse":1tck6nhp]Anyway two people in LGSG have already pointed out mr. Burnhams behaviour to the other group members.[/quote:1tck6nhp]

The whole Judicary Act business was before my time - for which I'm glad. However, regardless of the rights and wrongs of the issue, Ashcroft surely has [i:1tck6nhp]some[/i:1tck6nhp] right to be bitter about having so much of his work abandoned?

I think Desmond has a point, when he says that [i:1tck6nhp]everyone[/i:1tck6nhp] involved in the business shares some blame, and to simply label Ashcroft as 'bitter' or a 'libel-spewing hypocrite' does not suggest that the right lessons have been learned from the whole sorry business.

Finally, on a brief reading of the LGSG forum, the member who has taken most vehemently against Ashcroft is Prokofy Neva. From what I've seen of his writings, there and elsewhere, Prokofy is a forum troll of the very worst sort! If that's the sort of person TOP is looking to as an ally of the CDS, then we are in [i:1tck6nhp]big[/i:1tck6nhp] trouble.

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Post by Sleazy_Writer »

I wasn't judging Ashcroft whether he's right or wrong, but just pointing out that his message was unacceptably one sided.
You can't and shouldn't discredit a whole online community on the basis of the rejection of one large bill/act.
I wasn't only referring to Prokofy but also to our own Redaktisto Noble, who phrased his criticism in the LGSG poll in a very reasonable way.

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Post by Gxeremio Dimsum »

[quote="Carolyn Saarinen":1sv0evq8]Finally, on a brief reading of the LGSG forum, the member who has taken most vehemently against Ashcroft is Prokofy Neva. From what I've seen of his writings, there and elsewhere, Prokofy is a forum troll of the very worst sort! If that's the sort of person TOP is looking to as an ally of the CDS, then we are in [i:1sv0evq8]big[/i:1sv0evq8] trouble.[/quote:1sv0evq8]

Prokofy is SL's most well-known dissident, even being featured as such in the recently published SL Guidebook. She is also a major landowner, and in fact [url=http://slhomepage.com/forums/showthread ... 2:1sv0evq8]Ash approached her very early on to try to win her support of his system.[/url:1sv0evq8] So she was certainly not acting as a troll, but as someone consulted. The fact is, those whom Ash has taken his ideas to have ranged in their level of opposition, from simply "I won't take part" to "This is a horrible idea," but almost EVERYONE outside the CDS and of course many of us inside the CDS see the flaws in his ideas.

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Post by Carolyn Saarinen »

[quote="TOPGenosse":30c5ozu9]I wasn't judging Ashcroft whether he's right or wrong, but just pointing out that his message was unacceptably one sided.
You can't and shouldn't discredit a whole online community on the basis of the rejection of one large bill/act.[/quote:30c5ozu9]

Most people's personal opinions - being personal - are 'one sided' TOP. As for them being 'unacceptable'; to whom, you? (As I know, from my own experience, your tolerance for opinions other than your own is pretty low.)

Ash does not attempted to discredit the whole CDS. He specifically directs his criticism at the group of people who first commissioned, passed and then discarded his work: the RA.

I repeat, I am not familiar with all the details of the JA or the row that accompanied it - I simply haven't time to plough through it all. Especially since it is now a dead issue. I just think that Ash is as entitled to his view as anyone else, and that those still involved in the CDS who were parties to the debacle should have the humility to learn from their mistakes, rather than propose chasing him around the Web to denounce him. It smacks of vindictiveness.

[quote="Gxeremio Dimsum":30c5ozu9]Prokofy is SL's most well-known dissident, even being featured as such in the recently published SL Guidebook. She is also a major landowner, and in fact [url=http://slhomepage.com/forums/showthread ... 2:30c5ozu9]Ash approached her very early on to try to win her support of his system.[/url:30c5ozu9] So she was certainly not acting as a troll, but as someone consulted. The fact is, those whom Ash has taken his ideas to have ranged in their level of opposition, from simply "I won't take part" to "This is a horrible idea," but almost EVERYONE outside the CDS and of course many of us inside the CDS see the flaws in his ideas.[/quote:30c5ozu9]

I was not referring to Prokofy's response to the thread you linked to, but to the one TOP linked to, where this appears:

[quote="Prokofy Neva":30c5ozu9]What a pompous ass this freak is.
I see nothing to be done here except to ridicule the hell out of this bastard.
Gwyn's stalking horse, that's all he is.
It has nothing to do with me "not being involved from the begining" and everything with Ashcroft being a total pompous and tyrannical ass.
"The government tools that I am imagining at this stage involve giving everybody the choice as to whether to belong to a government or not."
Um..."I" am imagining? Why does Ashcroft get to do all the imagination? Why would His Majesty get to "give everybody the choice" -- as if that divine right springs from him?
The choice is not his to dispense -- he makes it seems like he can actually run SL by making a group and being Sudane's tenant and Gwyn's lapdog.
This really deserves constant ridicule, pushback, and if it doesn't sink of its own accord, all-out war.
[/quote:30c5ozu9]

Abuse and threats on that scale isn't trolling? I disagree.

Last edited by Carolyn Saarinen on Wed Jan 31, 2007 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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