CSDF General Meeting Friday 1 Dec - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting Friday 1 Dec - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on Friday 1 Dec at 3pm.

Location: The Red House on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt.

Please add suggested agenda items to this forum thread.

This is an open meeting so all are welcome to attend
Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Tue Dec 05, 2006 7:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm
Location: Neufreistadt, Colonia Nova and Locus Amoenus and Locus Amoenus

Transcript 1/2

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Meeting on 2006-12-01[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=Sienna:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Those present[/b:1tfgiwlf]: [/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: pls touch the recorder etc[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there's an agenda in the notecard giver[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: first item is the judiciary repeal proposal[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i have posted on this in the forums. i think the proposal is mad. but what do u think? :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Oh[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: It's a "populist measure"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Claude is afraid of the citizens.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I just now read that Beathan is publicly claiming it's all the DPU's fault[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: because they moved in with the Judiciary Act,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and so Claude is trying to put down the fire, doing what the citizens want to do[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well... 7 citizens :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: last time i checked it's only one or two raising hell on the forums. the 'silent majority' are, well, silent[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it's the old thingy: 'Who Yells the Louder...'[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So, my assessment is that it is premature[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so claude is panicking?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: He is. Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah, i think so[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But you could use the threat of having the SC approving the whole set of documents as "internal procedures"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as being then outside the RA's reach[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as a FAR more dangerous issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well indeed. he clearly hasn't thought it through[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and increase his level of panick from "paranoia" to "real" :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I guess as much.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what angers me (and I *am* angry) is that the LRA could be so irresponsible[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: of course, we must look at the other side of the issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And the SC really would have no choice ? all other possibilities would incur us into "neglecting our duty to provide a proper legal system" and would be cause for impeachment, so...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Indeed[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if he seriously believes it's worth junking all this work what the fuck have we been doing for the last six months? wher is the leadership?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: There is the issue of having our RA members *politically accountable*[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the alarm about the judiciary seems also like a manouevre by the Simplicity party[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and yes, i ask that too[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah-hah yes, Moon![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i mean, hours and hours reading posts, eyes watering... :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: a *huge* amount of work[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I've also thought as much. Those "7 citizens" are now clearly maneuvering into their pre-electoral campaign :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but to enact 'simplicity' would mean constitutional wrangling that woudl make the last term look like a walk in the park![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, it would[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that is something that must be very clear in campaign[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: anyway... we're opposed to this proposal i guess?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: let's save the electoral discussion for later, ok?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that the Simplicity party can not institute their model of governemnt without radical changes to the system and constitution[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i am opposed[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: tho i agree we need to have an initial discussion[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, it cannot pass without CSDF support so... it's dead[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, it can't[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well... I personally don't "oppose" the concept, I just think that it will get the CDS into far more serious troubles later on![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: at least the constitutional parts of the judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye, yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what about oversight? i think there is a genuine qn mark over ash's qualification process[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: In essence... all measures that remove power from an elected body of government, and put it elsewhere, are not good measures[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now that's another story :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but actually[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I haven't been able to download the PDF,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: now that you say that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so I just saw the quoted text[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Point one ? assuming people knew they should send the questionnaires to me,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: NO ONE APPLIED.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there is a proposal also for RA to force SC publishing transcripts[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Point two ? there is a LOT of arguing about US legal ethics[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, let's cover that under AOB Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The ethical issue means mostly that the discussion is being driven elsewhere[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I don't *oppose* the procedures.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think that Beathan and Ash are being quite pig-headed. beathan is not quite as obtuse as ash but equally stubborn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA, acting as the PJSP, could probably comment on these[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: lol Pat[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I agree.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i do agree this looks a 'I Am Smarter Than You' thingy[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ash is obtuse, but... he's right up to a point:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) Nobody applied as a judge when they had the opportunity for doing so[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes, that is a fact , Gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 2) Ash is entitled to set up the procedures as *he* wishes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i can't say that beathan has convinced me that we should junk ash's system (which is entirely constl and agreed) in favour of something else[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that's in the law! we have approved it...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, I understand Beathan's ethical qualms[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i also notice a certain absence of proposals of legislation that could modify the judiciary into somethng more pleasant... :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I fail to understand, however, how *US* judges are qualified ? but that's beside the point,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: we're not the US but the CDS[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: exactly[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Agreed, Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: imagine if i wanted to start imposing portuguese judiciary rules to the CDS[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No one proposes suggestions or alternatives ? except for "let judges be the better forum posters"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think there is a point (and we may have just reached it) at which the RA needs to intervene to say 'this is daft, let the SC appoint 3 judges who will agree the procedure for recruiting new ones'[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: LOL[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: really, Gwyn?![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Pat: that was fernando's suggestion[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And yes Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there is solid precedence for that:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: remember, that's how the *SC* members are qualified :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it may be a way out of the impasse[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and how do you define 'better'?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, yes, IF Ash agrees :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Wich he doesn't :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: And really ? he might be right :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: is it more words per thread? .D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes, Moon.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ;)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i am sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that is SILLY[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: posting more on forums only means you have more free time :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: do u have the text of the amend to hand? is it something we could support?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Fernando's reasoning: "The enforcement of the resolution, as I understood the debate, doesn't depend on having a timetable, but on effectively having two more judges in a couple of weeks. I. e., if we have no more judges under your system, the qualification process falls back to the Scientific Council."[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now this is arguable and debatable.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah, let's consider that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The SC argued over it, Moon[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and considered that it had no jurisdiction[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ie. that Ash's argument is correct[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant hums Monty Python's 'Oliver Cromwell' .)[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: lol[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but nevertheless[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So there is a deadlock here.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Fernando is right[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: In effect, *emotionally*, I do agree with Fernando[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA can review the application process as it is in the act[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: which is a much more sensible suggestion than Claude's tabula rasa[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But *legally*, the SC agrees with Ash's view ? a body of judges was created, and the SC has no right to interfere anyway,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it's irrelevant if the body of judges is "just on"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i think ash has designed a process that is *too* intricate[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *one[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That is another issue ? should, or shouldn't, the RA revise the qualification process?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but that may be a way to solve teh issue[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: There is another side-issue here worth considering.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: At one point,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there was this notion of "qualification"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and "selection"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The idea was: the Judges qualify,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant listens to Gwyn[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the PJSP (or the RA) "select"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Now... Ash tends to imply (and was accused of that!)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that this "qualification" process is a "two-step process"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) pass the exam[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 2) get appointed by the PJSP[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what if[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I think that it was Beathan that raised this question ? and said they were *two* separate processes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the PJSP defines the exam?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and actually, if you remember, that was my original amendment[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No, the Judges define their own admission exam[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that the PJSP - teh Order, then in my proposal, would define who could be judge[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: wb pat .)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Whew, I'm glad you're ok, Pat![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hi again[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: SL sucks *so* badly at the moment. gah![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: where were we?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: let me get a glass of madeira wine :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hehe[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: brb[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, basically, the issue about who sets the procedures for qualification of judges.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Actually, there is not much to be said.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Legally, it's up to Ashcroft,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: he cannot be blamed for no one else applying![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if ash's system doesn't work, the RA needs to do something[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That's something *else*, ie.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if his procedures of qualification fail to attract the required two additional judges that Publius has deemed to be necessary,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA, at least *morally*, should do something about it.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: But hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA *can*[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: how long can/should we wait?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I'm not sure when the qualification procedure finishes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, tomorrow i'll be ther only for half an hour :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA has "implied" that Ashcroft cannot "stall"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: there's nothing to stop ash hearing cases in the meantime, is there? justice can still be served, can't it?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: in the sense of endlessly postponing the appointment procedures[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Publius has the right[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to deem the Judiciary "not fair and not balanced"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: UNLESS there are three judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: since he sets the MINIMUM for a working judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: thus ensuring a deadlock on the system![/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what about[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: great :) judicial deadlock[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA convoking a new schedule for application of judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: We can't have a Judiciary operational WITHOUT 3 Judges, and we can't seem to get another two (either due to a lack of volunteers, or too struct application forms)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye Pat ? that worried the SC qute a bit, but, at the end of the day,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: this is quickly becoming farcical[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and redoing the process that has led to the appointment of Ash[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: since the SC now cannot pronounce things based on their experience etc, but only based on legal issues[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: my question?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes moon?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it meant that the SC was put outside the process as well :P[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, the discussion tomoro shd be interesting :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: shall we move on to 3?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: about the RA redoing the process of application[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: sorry moon, go on[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: you see that if this is feasible, it is something we can propose[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: also[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][i:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami slaps himself for being impatient[/i:1tfgiwlf][/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if no one else applies, then hmmm is speaking ill for speaking ill, right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The RA has no jurisdiction on that[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i'm not sure I understand what u mean by speaking ill of speaking ill[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: unless it changes the Judiciary Act[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, concerned citizens should jump at another opportunity of becoming judges and balancing the judiciary, right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well, it would be a small change, i think.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if the RA can repeal the act, surely it can modify it slightly[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Unless you mean having the *RA* qualifying the Judges?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Or just establishing the date?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: how was Ash appointed?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: That was the kick-start :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: someone asked for volunteers right?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Aye.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and he was the only person volunteering[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Yes.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so, open the process again[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: as i understand it the RA can modify the legislation to achieve their desired outcome, that cd involve new procedures for selecting more judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and let's see who shows up[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The issue is, moon,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the *current* law, as approved,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it just requires some carefl drafting of a const amend... and our support[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: does not allow that.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Once there is ONE judge appointed ?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the system enters in full force[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: what do you prefer?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to have the system repealed or changed?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Changed.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: How would you change it,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: so, how do you change it?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to prevent abuse in the future? :D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: yes gwyn, that is my undertanding too. changed also[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the issue right now is really: has the JC chair the right to prevent teh Judiciary from working, by establishing a minimum of Judges which is HIGHER than the number of Judges? :D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Change that line,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and we have a working judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: albeit one which only has Ash :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: translated into politicese:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: do we support ash or publius?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hmm, not appealing :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hahaha[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and lol[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Noooo[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the issue is one of balance.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i would be happier myself to have more judges, i must say[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: two people in the Judiciary,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: have the power, individually,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to stop the Judiciary from working.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: One by refusing to admit more Judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: The other by requiring MORE Judges than are available[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: So, BOTH need checks.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i have it, gwyn[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: the RA could pass legislation ordering a new procedure for appointing two more judges (by the SC) so that we could resolve the impasse[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Impeachment? .-D[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: oooh[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that would be a bad precedent, Pat,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: people would jump at you[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: "RA appointing Judges?! Oh NO!"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: impeach our only judge, before he even tries a case?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: No[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *threaten* to impeach BOTH :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if they fail to uphold their offices in a reasonable manner ;)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: no no, RA enabling the SC to appoint two more judges, then the SC backs off[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: i would go more for letting the truly concerned citizens stand up for the overall good :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and volunteer :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Ok, Pat ? how should that be worded,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: that it wouldn't raise any issues later on?[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Rememeber, once we use this to get more Judges,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it can always be abused, over and over again,[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: to get RA-friendly Judges into the Judiciary[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Politicially speaking[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, it would be a temporary measure. to get three judges installed. they would then decide how others are to be recruited. it would forces ash to design the system in collaboration with toehres[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: it wouldn't be a very good move.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: *others[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: imagine that the next thing that happens[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: listens[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: is Publius "raising the threshold"[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: "oh, now we need 7 Judges. Sorry folks."[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: ah[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: but you see[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Then the RA would deliberate again to get more judges...[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: if we open up anew application[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: then both publius and ash have to agree with it[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: You're assuming, Moon, that all new Judges would be fun, friendly, and nice... :)[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: publius, because we attend his request[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: hehe[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Moon Adamant[/b:1tfgiwlf]: and ash, because he was appointed the same way[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1tfgiwlf]: well, at that point we would impeach publius for being irresponsble. he hasn't been so far[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Right hmm[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: I still don't like the idea, but it's a possibility.[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Rather, I would change two things:[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: 1) Set the minimum requirement of Judges to be always equal or less the total amount of validated Judges[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: Well[/color:1tfgiwlf]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:1tfgiwlf][b:1tfgiwlf]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1tfgiwlf]: just one thing, sorry[/color:1tfgiwlf]
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Patroklus Murakami
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Transcript 2/2

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: the other does not make any sense[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: it's the madeira wine :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: It would be something like: "ensure that the compliance with the Chair of the JC is done in two weeks"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So, if Ash wants to complay with Publius' decision,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: he'd have to devise a system[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: that gets more judges in 2 weeks[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Over 2 weeks have passed since he posted his application form ?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: almost a MONTH has passed, in fact,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and we have no more judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm coming round to thinking that the problem lies with publius, and his insistence on 3 before anything can happen. is that where our attention ought to be focussed?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: It's ONE issue.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: One that is EASIER to address ;)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I know that this is not a good option[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: since I see that Publius is earnestly trying to solve the issue[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: of having a balanced system[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: by making sure that there is not ONLY ONE Judge.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So he's morally, ethically, and emotionally right :=[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: BUT... he has found out an interesting loophole,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami wonders what is wrong with having one judge for 40, 60 people....[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: through which a Chair of the JC can prevent the system of working, if we have a stubborn Chair of the Ethical Commission, or whatever it's called[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: How do you appeal? :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and btw[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well pat, the issue as i see it is also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: good point :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: people on teh forums are now asking for Publius to revise his number, from 3 to *four* judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: that is true also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: that the judges hold a power, namely of saying who can be judge[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This can endlessly go on and on[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: aah, loopholes. and the law of unintended consquences... :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: imagine that ash decides that a candidate for judge needs to be able to compute cubic roots in his head .D[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Yes.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: That's the level of requirements he's proposing, actually.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Thus the deadlock.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: and would Ash pass his own test? now that is a question :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The RA's and SC's oversight was that we never thought that Publius would use that clause to raise the number of Judges *above* the number of *existing* judges[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: ... because everybody would certainly antecipate that Ash would be a pain to deal with,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: well, it's a bit of a mess. but i don't think we're going to arrive at a solution right now. can we move on to the other items? i'd like to have soem time to discuss election strategy and i'm already flagging[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and thus the PJSP to put a check on Ash's powers :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: ok, let's move on :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: item 3. joining NFS and CN. daft idea, waste of money. agreed?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Just a brief note ? the best I can LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: yup[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: oops[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: also[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn abstains from that issue[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I think it's a *slight* waste of money[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, either NFS would hover almost 70 m over CN[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Yes[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: technical issues :D[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: or we would have to lower down all NFS... just imagine that[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: namely[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: No more fog![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: there are building atm for whch we don't have perms[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Aye[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And raising CN is impossible[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: so we would get a rathaus hovering :D[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, this is an old discussion[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: it is daft. and the SPC considered the issue and reached a well-founded decision. i tend to agree with ash that we should stick to decisions rather than unpicking them. NEXT![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: but what do you want? people don't understand the technicities involved[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe agreed, let's move on.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: what was the other proposal for tomoro's RA[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: hmmmm[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah, forcing the SC to publish transcripts[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, I have posted on that thread.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: oh yes. claudes suddenly discovers transparency, having presided over the first RA to hold secret meetings :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: LOL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, yes![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: i must say though[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: that the sc meetings are open[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: and people can attend them[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: of course they are ? open, public, free to attend[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: you can even participate, yell at the SC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: insult everybody present, etc[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, can we?![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: but... does the SC *really* want to not publish transcripts? i'm not convinced by dianne's arguments on this[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: There have been some tricky issues[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: because some of the things that were said by the SC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: informally[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: but logged[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: might be considered basis for defamation/libel[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Or at least "poor taste"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, we're humans.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Others could clearly be construed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: from a paranoid point of view[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: isn't the answer to that, that ppl should think more carefully about what they wirte when they're 'on the record'?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: as good arguments for seeing the SC as being dangerous thinkers :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: probably![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i've said some harsh things tonight but i stand by every word[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][i:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn is always careless[/i:2rb99whq][/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: well, another thing on this Pat[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: the SC, as an unelected body, is in a vulnerable position. it needs to *be* transparent and be *seen* to be transparent[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: What will happen, Pat,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: the SC is allowed constitutionally to define its own internal proceedings[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: so this bill needs to be an ammendment[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: is that the SC will then define its own proceedings to NOT tell when their secret meetings are ;)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah yes, there is the constitutional angle as well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: actually i don't have a problem with that gwyn[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This can't be a law, but an amendment to limit the SC's right to define its own procedures.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: also another thing:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: if the SC meets 'privately' or conducts business by email but then has a 'formal' meeting at which the transcript is taken and the decision delivered, i'm fine with that[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, that's what would happen[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah.... Moon has just crashed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Her laptop is having lots of hardware problems[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm probably fine with waht u want to do. but the record has to be as full as possible and the default position shoudl be that u publish a transcript unless there is a good reason not to[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: oh dear :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well she still has the old PC[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: she'll be logging in soon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I've discussed this with her earlier, lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So the point here is the following:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: she's sat there typing away as fast as she can[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: a zombie typist![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 1) Either the SC defines its own procedures internally, or it doesn't.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: haha[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 2) Transparency means: meetings are public to attend, and a journal is published[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: she's gon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: *gone[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: she'll be back :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So, an amendment to this would mean:[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: 1) Removing the SC's right to define its own procedures[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: This will, of course, also seriously limit the SC's ability to be "neutral"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i agree gwyn, and i think the RA should butt out of this one. i'm just saying what i think the SC ought to do :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I mean, once you start that ? the RA will be able to change the procedures every time they wished, to make sure all the legislation gets passed as they want[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: That's a dangerous precedent ? but not an unconstitutional one![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: well[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: I couldn't care less, actually, but I'm just voicing a minority of one[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And then point 2)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: all meetings would become secret[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: which, I fear, is far more "dangerous"[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The "fake" meetings would be boring, rehearsed[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and just reading from notecards[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: wb moon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well, they would also be MUCH shorter ? that's a good reason.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Ah, Moon's back ? great[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: as long as the decision-making is clear, i'm happy[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: thanks :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: what have i lost?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: So I would say, on this, that only one thing would need to be evaluated...[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: (not much, Moon, you've heard my arguments before, and they're posted on the forums as well)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: ah, ok[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: What is worse for the CDS ?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: A) Having open, public meetings with a journal of the discussion[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: i also would like to make a point[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: B) Having "fake" meetings, staged for an audience, and the SC only deciding and and discussing in private?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: if the RA must not interfere with the Judiciary... then must it interfere with the SC?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: hehe[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: just a coherence point here[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Well good argument, Moon :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: indeed moon[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The same applies, for instance, if you have a "collective of judges" on a trial,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: after a while, they retire to a room[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and discuss (in private) among themselves,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: then they come out[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: and read their conclusions.[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol, you see that we have to defend a standing[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: Usually, you don't have a record of what transpired when the collective of judges where on their office discussiing the case,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: all you have is the decision[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: The SC is like that ? with a big difference,[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: people now can attend these "backstage" meetings and participate if they wish![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i'm fine with this gwyn, u've 'ashcrofted' me into submission :)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: ROFL[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: And I'm defending an argument that I DON'T agree with on a *personal* basis ;)[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: OMG, thou art complex![/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: lol[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: can we turn to the upcoming election?[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: yes[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Moon Adamant[/b:2rb99whq]: gwyn is afk, but will brb[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: i propose that we don't post these discussions until after the election[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:2rb99whq]: backl, sorry[/color:2rb99whq]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:2rb99whq][b:2rb99whq]Patroklus Murakami[/b:2rb99whq]: so the transcript will stop here[/color:2rb99whq]
Locked

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