CSDF General Meeting 12 Oct - Transcript

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Patroklus Murakami
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CSDF General Meeting 12 Oct - Transcript

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

The next General Meeting of the CSDF will be on [b:2ik4f9ic]Thursday 5 Oct at 3pm[/b:2ik4f9ic].

Location: [b:2ik4f9ic][i:2ik4f9ic]The Red House[/i:2ik4f9ic][/b:2ik4f9ic] on the Lowland Road, Neufreistadt. [i:2ik4f9ic]N.B. new location this week, provided Jon's finished building![/i:2ik4f9ic]

Please add suggested agenda items to my preliminary list here on the forums.

[b:2ik4f9ic]Agenda[/b:2ik4f9ic]
[list:2ik4f9ic]1. Welcome to new members

2. Realising the CSDF Programme. How can we progress more of our programme from the last election? This meeting will focus on points 7-9 from our Election Platform - Constitutional Revision, Diplomatic Relations and Land Development.

3. Day/time of meetings. Can we we discuss an alternative day of the week/time for General Meetings?

4. Any other business[/list:u:2ik4f9ic]


This is an open meeting so all are welcome to attend
Last edited by Patroklus Murakami on Sat Oct 14, 2006 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Patroklus Murakami
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Posts: 1929
Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2006 5:54 pm
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Transcript 1/3

Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=Black:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Object-Name: notetaker 2.0.1[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Sienna:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Region: Neufreistadt (246528, 249600)[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOliveGreen:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Local-Position: (99, 77, 128)[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkGreen:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Meeting on 2006-10-12[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateBlue:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Those present[/b:15c6q31m]: [/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant is in the chair.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ok, everyone, please touch it :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: done[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ok[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: so, item 1 new members, we haven't any![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: Pat, i'd like to discuss citizenship too[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: one moment[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: first? or after points 7-9 of our programme?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, as you prefer[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: but if after, please time 7 and 9[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: let's try to cover the remainder of our programme in half an hour and then start discussing citizenship at 3:45?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ok :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: ok[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: Point 7 was Constitutional Revision. I think we have achieved some of our aims here. One thing that is left is the Repubic and other consequential amendments[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: also Civil Society proposal, that we must build[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and we are ammending teh Constitution as issues arise[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: so perhaps this does not need much discussion?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: btw, your proposal for referenda will be discussed this week, in principle[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: that is, at next RA[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: back[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: no, i don't think so[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: interesting[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, it has been trailing a bit[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: so let's move on to point 8 - diplomatic relations[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: not much to discuss there either[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: we agree that diplomatic relations should be set[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: issue is how[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Well, lets talk about the republic vs confed issue.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: a Foreign Office?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, we need to determine (as a community) what our attitude is to the world outside NFS[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: friendly? .)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: but this brings in the ideas we've discussed about confederation and what we want to achieve through it[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I get the impression that the confed vs republic issue is the next up on Claude's list.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: it is[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: there has been some discussion of these ideas on the forums in the last day or so[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: what do they want to do?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, i gather that they, like us, want to press their platform too[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Hi Gwyn![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: hi gwyn :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: hello, sorry[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: you have on a missing image thing.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn should warn you all that I'll be rather afk'ish today[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: that they feel, like we do, that they have been diverted from their platform due to discussion of other urgent matters[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: hiya Gwyn[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah yes. LL says that the missing image plague will go on for some more weeks.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: so the dpu want to press ahead with discussion of a federal govnt? appropriate for 5 sims? before we've established our seconnd? or are they going to talk about local govnt[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ah, that i don't know[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I think they may want to talk about CN, establishing a seperate administration there.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: won't they need a constl amend to achieve that?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: The point I wanted to Make, something that Gwyn has said, it that we are already a republic. The question really, it are we going to pass the amendments needed to turn us into a federal organization.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Exactly. They will.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: long live the republic![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: but they need us to pass it :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Indeed Pat.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: lol Pat[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: hehe[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: the stress is[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well then, we can wrest concessions or block their proposals[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: that there is a lot of confusion about models[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I agree.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and we must have[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: a proposal for local gov to fight theirs[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and that is where it sews with Civil Society[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: which, btw, they are thinking upon as well[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Hi Pel![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: hiya Pel :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Welcome[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: hi pel[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Hi All![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Did I miss anything?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: when are we likely to see a dpu proposal on local government then?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: just our heraldic discussion :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: We were just wondering about the DPU's strategy concerning the republic vs confed issue.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: ;)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Pel, welcome![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: awww you discussed heraldry before I came in?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn +cries*[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: you have a coat of arms already Gwyn :P[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah. True.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: and there is already an Adamant coat of arms :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yup :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: hmm . we've got double-sidetracked. first to the dpu's programme .. and now heraldry![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: lol, yes[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: back to track[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: where were we?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, do we see our thoughts on conferation as our alternative to 'local government'?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: or do we need a proposal for CN?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: hmmmm[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, stands to reason that you must have some duplication in CN[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I think if we do nothing on CN, given the current state of the constitution, CN will automatically be part of the current republic. Perhaps Pel can tell us this thinking on this issue?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Indeed, Jon, that is also my understanding...[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: agree as well[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: brb[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: why would CN 'need' local government? seems to me that many citizens would support less government rather than more :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ah, i meant that possibly you'll have to have a civil servant assigned to it[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: you know, land management, etc[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: yes, possbily[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: i have this idea that it is something that takes time[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: also, if we get some sort of Tourism Office, then you will have to have 1 person in nFS and other in CN[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, until we have a proposal from the dpu perhaps there is nothign really to discuss?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: but i think on this that these would be public servants[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: in terms of government and structure[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yup, seems like it[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: can we cover point 9 on our programme then? land development[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ok[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: one part of this was the planning festival, and we discussed that last week[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: i will listen to Jon here, since this was originally his proposal[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Here we have two issues to discuss, one is simply: "how" the other is "who is going to do it". And I mean beyond the planning festival.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: this brings in the issue of what to do with teh Guild[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: yes.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Actually I am also interested in what Gwyn has to say.. it seems to me that the land development proposal's focus was on commercial development[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, seems to me that things like having a jud, the chamber of commerce, etc, are also steps in teh direction of ' to develop a centre for excellence in brand awareness, and become known throughout Second Life for high quality and innovation.'[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah, the guild.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes, the guild[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant listens to Pat[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Well, Pat, can you tell us what happened when you applied.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Or re-applied?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, sudane' recent post and the fact that i'm still not a member means i don't hold out much hope for the instituiot[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: You did apply once, right?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: i reapplied and was turned down,, againn[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Oooh[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: sudane said she wanted to have a discussionon the forums first[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: So either the Guild is closed to new memebers, or it is closed to selected new members.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: but that discussion has been very unsatisfactory so far[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Very interesting :) I'm glad i haven't read a single post in the last week, though ;)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, i intend to post with my experiences[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ah, i haven't read that thread yet - or better, i did, but at 5AM[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: and make the point that either the guild is dead and we should bury it. or it is still alive and citizens should be allowed ot join[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I suppose I will reply to Pat's post with my own experience.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: the current situation is outrageous[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, you know my opinion[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: the guild should become a citizen's association, but we must re-balance the sys[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: back[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and that implies changes in Const[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I liked Jon's proposal for the "reform" of the Guild last week.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: But... yes, outside of the "government"[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: but until the exec proves itself as an institution we are left with the guild and the need to try to make it work. but we can't reform it from outside![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Yes, it seems to me if the guild is held "in reserve" as Claude pointed out, and CSDF members are not allowed, when the exec amendment reaches its sunset clause we may have a difficult situation.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes, also that issue of sunset[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: but i think we'll make a smooth transition there[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I agree. Pat, you describe things rather correctly ? if the Guild doesn't work *at all* as intended... why do we keep it in government?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: do u think sudane is worried about a csdf takeover of the guild? is that why we've been rejected again?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Hmm[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pat, exactly right. I think I need to post and say that on the forum.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: nah, i don't think that[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I don't know what to think, really.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Sudane is really not that "type":[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: she has her reasons.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Oh, my comment was not about the takeover.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: But I don't know what they are.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: I'd like to keep the guild while divorcing the executive functions while keeping the const. functions and adding various Kendra AC pieces and CoC etc.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: But that's just me.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: I was agreeing with Pat that we cannot reform it if we are not allowed membership.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ibut Pel, you'll have to remove the guild vetos on const[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn was just typing what Moon sa[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: *said[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, so what should be done next?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: My take on the CN gov't is that Claude's praetorship thingy should stand. A homegrown sim like CN will likely have a much tighter (less gov't) integration with CDS/NFS than say an annexed foreign sim, which may want more local gov't.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: pel, we're not on that now. we're discussing the guild[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pel, how you intend to acheve that goal without amending the constitution?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn has been reading a LOT on how the Romans did expand their territory and how they set up their ever-expanding government during the Republic days :)[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: strangely enough, they had similar views to ours.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle agrees with Gwyn :)[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: i think we shoudl join the guild debate on the forums and make it clear that we either reform it or abolish it. there's no halfway house[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: I don't plan on changing the const. This is just political opinion, off the cuff.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pat, I intend to join the guild debate.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Aye, Pat! Yes! Let's be energic on that issue![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn cheers![/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: A rally, perhaps?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Reeeeefooooooorm![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: It's been a year or so since we had the last one :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: i understand though the caution about preserving the guild because of sunset in executive[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: "REFORM OR ABOLISHMENT! THE GUILD HAS TO CHANGE!"[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pel, right now there is no const. provision for a separate governor for CN. How can you have one without an amendment?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: right. well we went over time on our programme. i suggest we move on citizenship.. and i need to go in twenty mins[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: I have no idea. :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: lol[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ok everyone[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: citizenship[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: That was an honest answer, Pol, thank you :)?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle listens to Moon[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: atm, there apparently are two factions in discussion[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: brb[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: territorial citiz vs hmmm economicl citiz[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: not to go into that discussion[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and to requote[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: we need a stronger def of citiz if we are preparing expansion[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: atm[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: our fund text just says that citizens are those that own land[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: so the proposal is[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: to aknowledge also the principles of political citizenship and administrative citizenship[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and tie them with territorial citizenship[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: making de jure what happens de facto[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn *raises hand*[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: this is a cautious wording[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: What is the difference between "political" and "administrative" (ie. citizens get their wish to become a citizen notarised) citizenship?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, political principle stress the need for citizens to uphold our sys[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: what's wrong with a definition of citizenship based solely on land-holding?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: this is mentioned in a very weak manner in our const[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well pat[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Pat ? it excludes people on franchulates that might rent land[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: because then[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: how can you insist that our codes be kept?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: if it is just holding land...[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: as long as you pay the fees...[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, it isn't *just* holding land because we have the covenant which we sign[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: smiles[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: where we give the political commitment you mention[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: hmmmm[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: that is weak too[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: i'm not sure what the proposal adds. what is the relevance to franchulates as well?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn was going to type something but hushes instead.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: mind you also that this wording would give more power to the covenant deed[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: since it expresses then the 3 principles[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and go on Gwyn :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: No no, Moon, that's fine.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: so, is this a 'tidying up' exercise? I'm just trying to understand teh motivation[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes, it is a tyding up[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I was thinking about how strong, for a citizen, is "signing a deed".[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and you see[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: that the franch bill[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: ... and specially about future citizens outside of the "core sims"[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: has these incorporated[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: in a much stronger way than what is said at our Const[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: aaah[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Yes.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ok[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I see now your point.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: therefore, if not an ammend to equalize, you have hmmm unfairness[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: ok, i'm with you on that. but gwyn's comment about franchulate renters has me worried :) what did u mean gwyn?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: since you do stress that the franch citizens MUST hold land bigger than x, MUST uphold teh codes, MUST sign a license[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: I see, Moon. A similar, silly RL analogy: you need months of bureaucracy and tests and papers and exams and psychological evaluations to adopt a child, but anyone can reproduce biologically without any requirement :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and that NFS citizens just need to 'own' land[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Well Pat[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: I plan to hold an informal meeting of citizenship crackpot theorists at Trotsky's sometime soon.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: franchulates are individuals coming to the CDS; right?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: So. What happens if they have rentals on their land?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: yes, this last version clearly defines the franchulates as individuals that hold mainland land[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn looks forward to Pel's event![/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Indeed, Moon.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: But it doesn't prevent people of having rentals.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Wel, the RA/Exec can revoke the license, I suppose...[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: well, two things could happen gwyn. they could automatically be offered citizenship. or they could be excluded as they don't own land in the CDS[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: well, Gwyn, maybe they could have some kind of a tourist visa? :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: i mean, when you are a tourist, you have to behave according to the place's laws[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Are renters on a franchulates CDS citizens under the latest proposal?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: no[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Full rights and duties, except for voting? (since they don't own land in the CDS)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pel, No they are not[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Moon ? this is becoming more and more the Republic of Rome :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: just checking. ok[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: We're reinventing a 2200-year-old wheel :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ?definetely not, since they don't meet the 3 principles - again, teh usefulness of this ammendment[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: What is the formal status of a renter?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: lol Pel - that is what i am thinking[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Rights/obligations etc.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: you can have two ways at first thought[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Pel, the question I started asking some time ago, and I think is relivant is how could a land baron work to set up democraticly run places[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: 1. immigrant[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: 2. tourist[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: "civitas sine suffragio"[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: ah[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: since the land is set to group whose charter must comply with our codes, so they are then too, in a way, compelled to follow our codes[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: ?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: "citizenship without a vote". That's how the Republic of Rome dealt with precisely this issue.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: listens to civitas sine suffragio[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: 2nd class citzens. :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Well yes.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: hmmm, that's similar to an immigrant status, who also doesn't vote[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah wait Moon[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: No[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: The immigrants, by definition,[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: live in land that is inside the "core territory"[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: what is the position regarding renters in NFS? we don't allow them, do we? should be consistent on franchulates[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: "civitas sine suffragio" always lived originally on territories that had an agreement with Rome.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Indeed, Pat. No rentals are allowed in NFS.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: ah, but you see that the bill says that the NFS covenants don't apply - this was a cautionary wording so people understand that they don't need to go heidi[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: "go heidi" hrrmpf[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: THOUGH[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: ?[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: Hi Ranma :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Olive:15c6q31m][i:15c6q31m]Ranma Tardis has indicated consent to be recorded.[/i:15c6q31m][/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Olive:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Ranma Tardis[/b:15c6q31m]: sorry I am late[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Oh, welcome, Ranma! :D[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: we can't allow people to 'bring in their rental group' as citizens. it would open the door to systematic vote-rigging[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkSlateGray:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Jon Seattle[/b:15c6q31m]: np![/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Indigo:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Patroklus Murakami[/b:15c6q31m]: hi ranma[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: Hi Ranma, you're faction mates are discussing 2nd class citizens. :)[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkOrange:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:15c6q31m]: jk[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: teh RA can vote a specific bill forbidding rentals[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: Ah-hah Pat. See how clever the Romans were.[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Olive:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Ranma Tardis[/b:15c6q31m]: yes I agree[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Navy:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Moon Adamant[/b:15c6q31m]: and perhaps that is the best way[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=Olive:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Ranma Tardis[/b:15c6q31m]: I agree with Pat[/color:15c6q31m]
[color=DarkRed:15c6q31m][b:15c6q31m]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:15c6q31m]: They had addressed *precisely* that point,[/color:15c6q31m]
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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: since they were overwhelmed by their annexations of areas much larger than Rome ;)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ah, i see your reasoning Gwyn[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Heark to the ancient wisdom of the Roman Senate :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: the idea of '2nd class citizens' is revolting though. what does the CDS have to do with anyone who simply rents from a land baron who decides to franchulate their land?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hmmm.. Gwyn, something not exactly right about that proposal..[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: they are not citizens in any meaningful sense[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Renting, 2nd class landless citizens. (Pelanor stfus now)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hehe sorry. Jon, I'm not making any proposal.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i do not like the notion of 2nd class citizens - though, in a very specific sense, modern immigrants are that, since they are taxated without being represented[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well the land baron should not be allow to enter the cds[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 2nd class citizens is way too difficult to fit in into the UDHR.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: really ranma? desmond shang is threatening to send us an alt of his :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so bar the rental business in franchulates with another bill[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: You would definitely need to clarify that citizenship is "owning a bit of CDS land directly" to define citizenship,[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and since rentals do not own land,[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: they would have one less right and one less duty.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Let me throw out an odd idea, just to see if it could float.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: not 'own' gwyn[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: an alt or even the person is ok as long as he has one vote[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I mean, Moon, if we became serious about "civitas sine suffragio". If not, we can drop the whole concept of "citizenship tied to owning CDS land"[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but if teh vote is secret ranma, how could teh land baron feel sure that every tenant would vote on him/her?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well my stand is against this at all costs[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I dont think we should attempt to have citizens without votes. But let me suggest something else.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Against franchulates?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ah sorry, Jon.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: then dont have them[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i'm going to need to leave soon[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][i:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant listens to Jon[/i:a1ku6s5b][/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Lets pretend that CDS is a corporation that 'owns' all the land here. Land owners get certain rights by investing in that corporation.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: In effect land ownership is a kind of invenstment.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well, we are a cooperative, so you are correct in a sense[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: What if we introduced another model of inventment. In this case the invenstor would be buying stock[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: the stock would be used to build new sims, to expand.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so it would be bonds?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmm :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 'shares'[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Part of the agreement involved in buying the stock, another form of invenstment, would be to agree to the political requirements of citizenship.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Yes, shares.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so sorry, NO[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so we're back at landless citizens again?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Well, here is the thing. These citizens would be buying land in future CDS sims.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: compeleed to?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh ok, that's interesting[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I disagree, It is a ploy and forgive me Pel to stuff the ballet box[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ah, i see![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: a ploy, Ranma?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes and not needed[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but what do you mean by 'a ploy'?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it is a excuse to get new voters in the system[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ah[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Let me suggest something (no not my economic thing)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, democracies never fear new voters ? every time we get a new citizen, we get someone with a vote :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: What about Ash's suggestion to use the UK style 2nd title on land for citizens renting land on franchulates.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: then let's expand the microplots instead of abolishing them and pel can boost his vote still further[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: nods[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Full citizenship, vote, landowning, but actually renting.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pel, I thought actually that Jon was suggesting that.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: NO[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: iie, dame!!!![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 2nd title maintains all citizens as landholders and allows the "renting" on franches.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: *sigh*[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, you'll be suggesting next that we close down Colonia Nova :P[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pat you live there, how does 2nd title work in the UK?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ... after all, we'll get 25-30 more voters there.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: no it should be sold in the normal way[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, very dangerous, no?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Well, I am suggesting something a bit different.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i don't think anyone has any serious problems with 'normal' expansion i.e the replication of NFS-style sims across the grid[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: btw, i do have an answer for you on CN land, Ranma, remember me in a bit[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: BTW Pat, don't accuse me of something you don't have evidence of. It's secret ballot last time I checked and my tactics are freely available to any of you.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but these 'get big quick' schemes need careful thought[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: sorry I will not resort to such[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i'm accusing you of what you admitted to pel[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ahem[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ahem[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: sorry, i would like to keep the discussion on the proposed amendment[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and when i see you suggest 'this would be a good idea to expand' i wonder quite how it serves your interests[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: sorry moon[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: np, but it is really because i do like to hear your ideas on this[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ok. I actually tend to agree that landless citizens should also be voteless citizens, as a matter of principle ? but that's just because I happen to like the feudal notion of having your vote tied to your land :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: if the RA passes this act, I am history![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: also Chicago raised an interesting question on the mail duiscussion[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: discussion*[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][i:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle listens to Moon[/i:a1ku6s5b][/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh, let me quote it, just a sec - but you have read it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Chicago has said:[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: My only very small concern would be that the wording of the first matter of upholding the constitution might be used to deny citizenship to those who seek reform at some future date.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, that is a good point[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pat, do you think your proposal on Const Referenda is a safety as regards this?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Well, it could be worded "support the constitution, while using the means it provides when trying to change it" or some such.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: referenda would simply slow down the pace of change and provide a further check on an activist legislature[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ok, i have not read it in a bit, sorry, so i needed to recall it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes jon, something like that would work[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it's really a commitment to use 'constitutional' means to effect change, not a slavish devotion to the current text[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: exactly Pat[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][i:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant is thinking how to word that lol[/i:a1ku6s5b][/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well I do not like the ideal at all[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Sorry Pat, yes I attempted to boost my vote with this tactic.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, you may care to notice we are discussing other matter entirely now[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: pel, we've move on. i'm not really that interested in debating this with you right now[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: *moved[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ranma, waht are your concerns?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: this is the ammendment on citizenship that you also recieved in mail for discussion[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i will past it here again...[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 1. Political Citizenship A citizen must accept and uphold the laws, Constitution and ToS of the CDS, and the rights and duties by them defined.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 2. Territorial Citizenship A citizen must hold, through any of the approved processes, at least one minimal land unit, which is defined at x m2[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 3. Administrative Citizenship A citizen must be registered with the CSDF, and that register must be public.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I wanted to get back to my trial baloon.. another variation. What if, before it was ready, I bought land in CN. Perhaps I was speculating, expecting to sell it later at a profit. Would that be sufficent to have a vote?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: how would you know?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Jon, you're terrible :D[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but sure, yes.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: exactly[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Point #3: CDS :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: good point Jon :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: You need all 3 to be a citizen correct?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, Pel[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Yes[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: they are non-exclusive[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: we have the same potential problem already tho, don't we? anyone can speculate on NFS land if they think it's worth it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: indeed pat[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: sorry moon?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: What if you can't buy parcels on a new sim until it's been terraformed and zoned and divided into parcels by the EO/Chancellor?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh, i mean that you have to have the three, maybe not correct english there[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: do you mean that all three must be accepted? they are not' mutually exclusive' perhaps?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, lol[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pel, why is that speculation a bad thing? I am not saying I have an opinion on it, just asking.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: All or nothing. You is in, or you is out.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ok I am OUT![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i mean that you just don't have to hold land, you have to have a public deed and you must accept and uphold the sys[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I love speculation, but if the land hasn't been divided and zoned, what am I buying?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well there is a question looming about land owneship and citizenship in CN...[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh...Moon, I thought you need #1, #2 and #3 to be a citizen (which makes sense to me).[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: what happens if we get more people applying than we have land available?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, you need the[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: kk[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: the 3 of them[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pel, CN plots exist on paper, and were set up long before the sim existed.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you just can't have 2[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: easy I can sell my land for profit :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: got it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well, btw[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: CN plots are still not for sale yet[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, no need to be hasty, this is still land=citizen[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I know, this is just a thought experiment.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes until saturday[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I have duty sat am :([/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes Ranma, in fact more than land=citizen, as you will notice if you read carefully[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: When I invest in a place I am voting in a way in favor of its success. I am showing I have confidence in that place.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ah. You will probably realize a pretty good profit if you sell your parcel.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: also acceptance of codes=citizen and public notarising=citizen[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well it is yours for 50 american![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: We'll IM about it. :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i must get going folks. early start tomoro[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami[/b:a1ku6s5b]: goodnight all[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: understand[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Aye, Pat, good night.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Indigo:a1ku6s5b][i:a1ku6s5b]Patroklus Murakami yawns[/i:a1ku6s5b][/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Thanks Pat.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ah, sleep well Pat[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ok, as agreed, let's carry on[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Oh, I was too late to say bye to Pat![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pat will get the transcript[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: if my understanding is correct the ra has decided[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: decided on what?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: to pass this act[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: which act?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Which one?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and on what bases do you say that?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, no, we are just discussing a possible future act.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh I aman old political hack[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I can see it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: please be explicit[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: There is no citizenship bill I know of. And if there was in my hands right now there's no way it'd pass on Sat.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i am not following you[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you want to expand the voter base[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Furthermore, the DPU *will not* introduce one. It's not on the platform.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: So it'll come from a citizen or the CSDF if it comes at all.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: this is a CSDF meeting not DPU, I am not pragmatic[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmm, if we expand teh territory, it is logical that we expand the number of people holding land, no?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: sorry I disagree[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: what about CN, is it a 'ploy' too?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: nope[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ah, pray, what is teh difference?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: should be sold by the normal method[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ok. So the idea is that we should only expand on private islands.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: if you care to read carefully the transcripts of RA meetings[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you may notice[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: that a great care has been set of late[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: the RA meets at a bad time for me, Sat morning I have duty![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, sometimes we throw around ideas to see if they work. This is, I think, a useful way of figuring out what the problems are before we introduce a bill. At the moment we are trying to figure out what citizenship might intail.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: the transcripts of meetings are available to all[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Citizenship is an *old* issue.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: they are public in the forums -and, as said before, an citizen can propose a bill[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well you know my responce[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: We're always discussing citizenship at some point...[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it is NO[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hehe[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and therefore i ask you what are your basis to that response?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it you want to do it, I cant stop you[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pel, if I remember correctly, now acting all so conservitive, you introduced a number of new ideas about citizenship. Did you forget?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: not me![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: If I had to guess, from Ranma's postings, it's a)election manipulation and b)paying for the landless.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i think you are looking at it through a very distorted prim. This is not even a CSDF proposal, it is a DPU one. The discussion centers around making it an umgameable proposal[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Is that correct Ranma san?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well I say NO[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: prism*[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hmm. What about a constructive "no", Ranma? What could be added to make this work?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I have ideas and concepts, and frankly they are controversial. They are not on our formal platform, so I thought I could post about them and have Ash or the CSDF take them up an and write a bill we could consider.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, that is what i am asking for[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well I have draw the line in the sand[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Pel, what is wrong with that?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: will not retreat from this[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Nothing, that's what I plan to do.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Which is basically: citizens are only the ones owning land on private islands. Right?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: correct[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: on *our private islands[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma's line, if I understand, is citizens *MUST* own land on private islands.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you are smart[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: why?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: if the RA passes something else I will leave[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: why?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I love ya babe, but that sounds like an ultimatum.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ah, BTW, Ranma, I think citizens are not allowed to threaten to leave ;)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you have to be kidding me[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: not at all it is a promise[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I will not live under such[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, i am trying very much that you give me a logical reason why you think that only people holding land in private islands should be citizens[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well that is my position[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: from that reason, whatever it is, we can build a discussion upon[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but i can't hold a discussion uopon your position[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: upon*[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: unlike the other I will sell my lot[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: gomen nai![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: please, i ask again[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: why do you think only people holding land in private islands should be citizens?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it is the concept of our nation[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmm, our nation started on the mainland, actually[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it was 1/3 of a sim[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I know[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so...?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well it is not the goverment I signed up for[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I'm fine with Ranma's position, it is quite clear.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: To reiterite it.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: For Ranma, a citizen of the CDS must own a mainland parcel (say 128m2 or larger).[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Yes.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: *private island. (sorry)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][i:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant listens to pel[/i:a1ku6s5b][/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes I suspect there is more to it[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hmmm[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and uphold the laws ToS const etc.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well I have been rejected now by all three branches of goverment[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Basically Moons #1-3 inclusive on private islands only. Does that cover it Ranma?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: no[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: you can do what you like[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Moon's #1 to #3 cover everyone[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Just trying to understand, that's all.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Can you write a one line definition of citizen?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, please do[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: so sorry I will not get in a debate over this[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I see the RA has made it decision[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: 3 out of 5 votes are here now[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: i wonder how you could be so sure... since we are discussing something that has not even been presented yet[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ranma, we are just throwing around ideas at the moment. The RA has made no decision at all.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: oh I have been around[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and i think you heard me specifically ask for opinions from teh CSDF on this[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: well I agree with Pat on this[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Ok, what if we touched nothing, no CSDF citizenship bill at all? Would that work?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, we dont need to expand like this![/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but can't you see that there is a bill that has been passed already[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Franch as it stands today doesn't touch citizenship in any way.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and that buill - excuse me, Pel - was an unsafe bill on the matters that concern you[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I will not live in a CDS that uses renters to "stuff" the ballet box[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I have to leave[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Not to be an ass, but we *all* rent from Sudane.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: and that we have been discussing the drat bill to namely meet your concerns?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: gomen nai[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: no[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hi Rudy[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Rudy take over for me[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Green:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Rudy Ruml[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hi you lucky people, I'm here.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Olive:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Ranma Tardis[/b:a1ku6s5b]: brb[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: ranma, please read the RA transcripts[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Sorry, Rudy, i completely forgot to tell you about this CSDF meeting. It happens every Thursday at about this time :P[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Green:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Rudy Ruml[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Hi people, Nice seeing you.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: hi Rudy :)[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: we are discussing citizenship definitions here[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Green:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Rudy Ruml[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I tried to find out what open meetins were being held when, but the october calandar hs nonthing on it.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: we have a proposal that is actually MORE cautious than the current constitutional text[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkSlateGray:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Jon Seattle[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I should mention that we are just tossing around a possible future bill. Nothing has been decided even as to a proposal.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkOrange:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:a1ku6s5b]: I've got about 20mins, and I apologize for monopolizing a CSDF meeting.[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Rudy, indeed, I think that we need to get our PIO to start filling that calendar again :P[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: yes, it is not even a proposal yet, in fact it wa brought here to see if it coudl become a proposal[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: it has been discussed in teh CSDF by email[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: but the discussion has been a bit confusing[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=Navy:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Moon Adamant[/b:a1ku6s5b]: what are your thoughts on citizenship, Rudy?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: Well, the issue is: right now, citizenship is defined by "owning land in the private islands of the CDS"[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: How can that get changed?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
[color=DarkRed:a1ku6s5b][b:a1ku6s5b]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:a1ku6s5b]: And the second question is ? should it be changed at all?[/color:a1ku6s5b]
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Patroklus Murakami
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Post by Patroklus Murakami »

[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: And thirdly ? will the change be for the better, or not?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I just fionished reading your platform, and first let me say that I think you should be calling for a constitutional convention.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: we are discussing three non mutually exclusive principles[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: As to citizenship, is there a question on that?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: Territorial, as it is[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: but also, what happens de facto[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: a need for a public registration[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and the upholding of our codes, Const and ToS[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I see a need for some sort of registration, but not necessarily threw land ownership. De fato is land ownership?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes...[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Well[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Even de jure, actually.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: Rudy, the Const says:[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: Pel listens intently[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: Citizens must agree to uphold the constitution. Citizens are those persons who own private land in sims subject to the city government.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: The questin then is how one establishes a person has decided that the city is for them.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: this is incorrect to tsart with[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Rudy, that is the question. Yes.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: citizens do not 'own' land,[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Perhaps, a declaration of citizenship, which is acceptance of the constitutiion.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and there is not a 'city government'[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: also, the acceptance f the constitution is not even a condition to citizenship[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: Rudy, I love you already.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Yo have to sand in line Pelanor :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: hehe[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: not to be confused with lines in sand[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Well, I think registratin is best, but raise you hand and swear that you...[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Youo can use one of my books in place of the bible.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: lol Rudy[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: we can have yoru official picture too :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, hand it over the registratin desk.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: with one of those order ribbons accross your chest :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Hmm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Serious, I shouldn't be injecting such humor into what is a really serious question. Can't help it.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: lol, np :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Although I like cerimonies (and this reminds me, Pel, you were supposed to get one for the Chancellor),[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: I think we should have "something else".[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: yes, Pel...[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: So, Rudy, have you ever had this particular discussion with Ranma, BTW?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: i vote on the ribbons![/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: We used to start citizenship as stating the willingness to serve under the city's constitution, and having two citizens vouch for you.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: No. Why do you ask?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: smiles[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: What is the group thought on citizenship?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: She is of the status quo position that a citizen must own CDS land (private island ony)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Rudi, we have a number of different opinions at the momet.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Oh, a bit split, I'm afraid.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Indeed.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: I have advocated the ability for the landless to become citizens[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: yup[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: btw, i would also like to have some sort of cultural definition of citizenship, but i am still at a loss how that coudl be defined[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][i:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn has suggested the Roman way of creating voteless, landless citizens, although that is a horrible thought which I should have withdrawn :)[/i:276q6ij1][/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: You are down to the RL standard of a pledge of alliegance. Which causes fears of massive election abuse via alt.s[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I agree with Pelanor. Love you to.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: indeed, specially in SL, Pelanor, where people usually can get away with it.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and as for me, i think that we must have all citizens on an equal base[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: atm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: I haven't gone into my latest spiel, it's not my meeting, and it really takes a well thought out forum post I'm putting together.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: you have a citizenship defined const.ly by only owning land[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Ah. Well. That might be impossible, Moon. There will be always a difference between the ones putting their money into the CDS, and the ones not willing to do so.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: but also you have a bill that has been approved - 5.3[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: on franchulates[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: that bill - which, i say again, has been approved last month or so - didn't define citizenship[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: we have been working to review it[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: so it now demands actually MORE from franchulate citizens than from NFS citizens[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: namely[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: Right, and BTW, to allay fears, we don't have a single franch application so this is all academic at the moment.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: Franch Citizens MUST be registeres, MUST uphold the constitution, MUST have land no smaller than 128 m2[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: so you see you have two conflicting criteria[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: between NFS and CN citizens[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and eventual citizens from franchulates[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: As it stands today, it creates no new citizens and just adds to the tax base by increasing CDS land holdings, that's it.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, Pelanor. Indeed.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: thus creating the problem of 'taxation without representation'[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: which is incorrect also[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: (Oh, as aside, may I take everyone's picture? This is the first meeting in the house, which I designed for meetings.)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: lol, sure! :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, I'm smiling.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: Well, they are represented via vote, no. These are full citizens.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: no?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: <--- smile for the picture[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Olive:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Ranma Tardis[/b:276q6ij1]: Like Pat, I say NO[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: come on Pel :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: is trying to find a suitable head up his ass aniamtion.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: yes, ranma has expressed that view several times[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: pfft[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Disturbing sounds here.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: so we were now trying to discuss it[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Olive:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Ranma Tardis[/b:276q6ij1]: I will not be a party to my own enslavement[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][i:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn *scratches head*[/i:276q6ij1][/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: Ranma, why do you say that?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Olive:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Ranma Tardis[/b:276q6ij1]: I will not bore you further with my presence[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Olive:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Ranma Tardis[/b:276q6ij1]: goodnight[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: please stay and participate in teh discussion[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Well... good night[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I'll speak to oheer later to see what the problem is.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Well, Rudy, she's worried,[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: because she has fixed her mind into believing that any other form of citizenship,[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: is prone to abuse.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: On the citizenship matter, I'e been looking at the consitution, which I'm sure you all know by heart.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: yes[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: It only defines citizenship in his way: Citizens must be referred by two members of the group. Citizens must agree to uphold the constitution. Citizens are those persons who own private land in sims subject to the city government.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: sigh[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, worried, I think , about outsiders coming into the community.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Well, nothing is decided yet. Since we're not sure of anything at this point either. But at least we're willing to discuss it.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: namely, ranma has also implied that she believes there is a 'ploy' to promote vote abuse[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, Rudy, that's it.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: which is really hard to consubstantiate, seeing that the RA has, in the last sessions, voted measures against vote abuse[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][i:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle nods[/i:276q6ij1][/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: such as the microplot termination act, and teh new rules for elections[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: The onstitutional definition still stands?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, for the moment.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: as for franchulates, we have been discussing it over one month or more - previous to the other term discussion[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: after*[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: in fact, all put together, franches have been in discussion for over 8 months[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: mm hmm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Seems undo weight when there are other more important issues.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Often I wondered when Pelanor was going to leave us, since we were taking sooooo long to discuss this.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: well, the RA has been trying tomeet the concerns of citizens as regards making this a 'safe' bill[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: these discussions are all posted[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes they are.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Seems to me that on this question, Ash's disease has been contagious.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and even more, they have been publically discussed here at the CSDF meetings, since it is the CSDF making the bulk of revision[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: oh?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: brb[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: brb?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][i:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle wonders what Rudi means?[/i:276q6ij1][/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Gee, I thought you wouldn't ask.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Ash has this lawyer's tendency to try to settle everything before the facts or experience.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: back, sorry, glass of water[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I have disagree strongly with him on this.I say experience and grdaual adjustsments to that experience[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: should come beforre making decisions over what to do.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: listens[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: He want rules first. I say rules second. So, i see Ash's diisese as trying to make rules in abstract from experience.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: hmmm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: specifically in this matter - since i don't think you are talking about the eventual citizenhip amendment, which would be an equalization and clarification only[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: No, I'm not.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: so you would advogate that we would set a franchulate first of all?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: and build from there?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: hmmmm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: with no political framework?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: The constitution says nothing about land ownership being required.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: sorry, it does[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I own land, but I knowe of no two people who have recommended me to be a citizen.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: to quote again :[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: "Citizens must agree to uphold the constitution. Citizens are those persons who own private land in sims subject to the city government. "[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: mm hmm[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Srry, I only read paragraphs one line at a time. It is calleld linitis.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: haha.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: :-D[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: so where do we stand?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: I can't help it. I'm lauching so hard. ROF[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: hahaha[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: Ah, sorry, I sadly have to leave you.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkRed:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:276q6ij1]: See you :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: Cheers, Gwyn.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: yes, this meeting is way beyond time as well[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Bye and thanks Gwyn[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: shall we close it?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: I seem to be slow saying bye today.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: lol jon :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, I think so.[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: ok, meeting closed[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Green:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Rudy Ruml[/b:276q6ij1]: You meet every Thursday at what time?[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: thanks everyone[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkOrange:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Pelanor Eldrich[/b:276q6ij1]: huh[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Navy:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Moon Adamant[/b:276q6ij1]: 3 PM SLT, Rudy :)[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=DarkSlateGray:276q6ij1][b:276q6ij1]Jon Seattle[/b:276q6ij1]: Yes, we meet every week at 3 PM SLT[/color:276q6ij1]
[color=Teal:276q6ij1][i:276q6ij1]The meeting closed at 17:44 Linden time.[/i:276q6ij1][/color:276q6ij1]
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