July 2008 Elections CSDF Debate with the candidates (1/4)

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July 2008 Elections CSDF Debate with the candidates (1/4)

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[16:17] Rose Springvale: what's the format today?
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Apparently I was 'assigned' the role of moderator without knowing lol
[16:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*
[16:18] Rose Springvale: hehe. Gwyn and moderate.. hmmm
[16:18] Jon Seattle smiles
[16:18] Moon Adamant: yes, we have been discussing it for two weeks gwyn
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, in that case — thanks to everybody for coming!
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rose: :)
[16:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn notices that Arria is away...
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, welcome anyway ;) Today/tonight we'll try to have the CSDF's two candidates on the upcoming elections tomorrow,
[16:19] Salzie Sachertorte: ssoff
[16:19] Arria Perreault: :-)
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to explain a bit what the CSDF stands for and what they're planning to do next term
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (wb Arria!!!)
[16:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now hmm
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CSDF is not known for having short manifestos... but...
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The one for the next term is here: http://cds-social-democrats.org/platform.html
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It has four big areas.
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A. Building Democratic Institutions
[16:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: B. Investing In Our Citizens
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: C. Developing our Economy
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: D. Preserving and Developing Our Land
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn is slow at copying & pasting, sorry
[16:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For each, the CSDF has quite a lot of plans... which we're proposing to push very strongly
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And you know how 'pushy' we are ;)
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: CSDF — We Make Things Happen.
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And now, the candidates... applause :)
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn doesn't hear anyone clapping lol
[16:22] Justice Soothsayer cheers (and drinks)
[16:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhh thank you Ruba!
[16:22] Jon Seattle applauds!
[16:23] Pip Torok: sound of 1 hand clapping?? :-)
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, we haven't planned who was going to talk about what first, did we, Arria & Justice? ....
[16:23] Justice Soothsayer: hard to clap with a beer in hand
[16:23] Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, let me talk a bit on point A
[16:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Please!
[16:24] Justice Soothsayer: I think the events of this term, and not just of the last week, show that we have a LOT to do to get our democratic house in order.
[16:24] Jamie Palisades: heh hear hear
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[16:24] Justice Soothsayer: Fundamental stuff, like having one copy of our constitution that is correct.
[16:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :D
[16:24] Justice Soothsayer: Fundamental stuff, like behaving civilly in meetings...
[16:25] Moon Adamant nods
[16:25] Justice Soothsayer: fundamental stuff, like ensuring that all of out govt branches function with transparency, and good will.
[16:25] Rubaiyat Shatner: /gtg be back from train, (add my hear hear to this too)
[16:25] Moon Adamant: see you in a bit Rubai
[16:25] Justice Soothsayer: I know that Arria and I, and others in our faction, are deeply committed to working on these fundamentals.
[16:26] Pip Torok: see you rube!
[16:26] Justice Soothsayer: nye, Rubai.
[16:26] Justice Soothsayer: *bye
[16:26] Arria Perreault: yes I confirm
[16:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh btw — are you fine in posting a transcript of the chat today?
[16:27] Moon Adamant: fine by me
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oops, Ruba already left — well I'll ask permission of him afterwards
[16:27] Justice Soothsayer: I think our platform lays out some conrete steps, such as pledging "no drama", and moving quickly to fill the Archivist position.
[16:27] Rose Springvale: can i interrupt or is this a presentation?
[16:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, please interrupt, Rose :D
[16:27] Justice Soothsayer: feel free, Rose
[16:27] Moon Adamant: sure you can
[16:27] Arria Perreault: and describe processus and tasks
[16:28] Justice Soothsayer: that's all I wanted to say on A for now
[16:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's the last chance to pester the candidates with questions, so this is your opportunity :)
[16:28] Rose Springvale: okay, 1) transparency in government is a big deal .. and not easily achieved.. how do you propose to do so , and HOW
[16:28] Rose Springvale: can you assure no drama??
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 is a good question for Arria, since she already posted a few things about that on the forums...
[16:29] Justice Soothsayer: taking the 2nd one first, its hard to guarantee No Drama, but I am sure we won't engage in name calling, etc.
[16:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No personal attacks.
[16:29] Moon Adamant: idefinetely hope not
[16:29] Pip Torok: IMO its how we react to drama that arises
[16:29] Rose Springvale: i'd like to see legislation
[16:30] Justice Soothsayer: and I think folks have seen Arria and I in action, and know we don;'t engage in that kind of behaviour
[16:30] Moon Adamant: oh, for sure!
[16:30] Rose Springvale: yes Justice, but neither do most of us, doesn't keep us off the firing line
[16:30] Justice Soothsayer: Arria, you want to take Rose's #1?
[16:31] Justice Soothsayer: Arria may be having trouble; I'll just mention that she's been working hard on getting all of our diverse information sources under one portal roof
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For several months, in fact.
[16:32] Justice Soothsayer: and that we need to be vigorous about such things as posting legislation and meeting transcripts promptly to keep everyone informed on a timely basis.
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's *crucial*
[16:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... as we have seen
[16:32] Rose Springvale: true.. but
[16:32] Rose Springvale: we sure do expect a lot of our volunteers, and provide so little in the way of resources
[16:33] Jon Seattle: very true
[16:33] Justice Soothsayer: sadly, quite true
[16:33] Moon Adamant: well, hopefully the new portal will facilitate that exchange of information which is so needed
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The sad bit, Rose, is that we have a LOT of resources, but they're spread over dozens of sites and notecards
[16:33] Rose Springvale: exactly
[16:33] Jamie Palisades: heh - amen
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And, well, buried in the forums
[16:33] Rose Springvale: and no one knows quite who to ASK
[16:33] Rose Springvale: for help from
[16:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[16:34] Rose Springvale shudders at the mention of forums
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[16:34] Jamie Palisades: is that a design flaw?
[16:34] Jamie Palisades: or a jobs-assignmet flaw?
[16:34] Jamie Palisades smiles
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In fact, the Executive has the task to help out citizens to find information they need
[16:34] Arria Perreault: now I am here ;-)
[16:34] Moon Adamant: well; Jamie dunno
[16:34] Justice Soothsayer: in part, it is because of the organic way our information/communication sources have grown
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But they also need tools and people for that...
[16:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: wb Arria :)
[16:35] Rose Springvale: ah
[16:35] Moon Adamant: but for instance, one thing that would help - that all bills would have a rationale
[16:35] Arria Perreault: sorry
[16:35] Rose Springvale: so it IS a communication issue
[16:35] Moon Adamant: sometimes it's hard to remember the reason why of a one-liner bill passed 4 terms ago
[16:35] Arria Perreault: I think that we can improve some processus
[16:36] Arria Perreault: but the portal also an important key of succes
[16:36] Rose Springvale: and if they could be automatically placed in the code where they belong, with conficlting legislation removed.. its a mess to try to find things
[16:36] Justice Soothsayer: I support the Code Reorganization bill.
[16:36] Arria Perreault: either it contains informations or at least the link to
[16:36] Rose Springvale: but are you willing to work on it Justice?
[16:37] Rose Springvale: its very boring work
[16:37] Justice Soothsayer: and further would like to see the code "indexed".
[16:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh yes :)
[16:37] Justice Soothsayer: And yes, I'm willing to work on it, will introduce that bill early in the term.
[16:37] Jamie Palisades grins - let's see if we can get it enacted Justice :) Tell Gwyn to vote for it
[16:37] Rose Springvale: lol
[16:38] Arria Perreault: yes, we have to find a way to make legislation accessible to non-specialists
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers*
[16:38] Justice Soothsayer: Gwyn, vote for it.
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye boss :)
[16:38] Justice Soothsayer: heh
[16:38] Salzie Sachertorte: Excuse me all - I have to run back to RL.
[16:38] Rose Springvale: nice to see you SS
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: nice to have seen ypu
[16:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oops
[16:38] Jamie Palisades: bye Salz xx
[16:38] Moon Adamant: bye Salzie :)
[16:39] Rose Springvale: but surely you all dont' think the portal and the forums are the sole answer to our communication problems?
[16:39] Jon Seattle: Nice to see you Salzie :)
[16:39] Moon Adamant: they aren't
[16:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that point A is also about changing the way the elections work...
[16:39] Moon Adamant: but they're a start
[16:39] Moon Adamant: and we do have a lot of work to catch
[16:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they're tools, Rose. People will always be more important!
[16:40] Arria Perreault: well I think that the RA should also have a communication concept
[16:40] Justice Soothsayer: certainly not a panacea, just a good starting point.
[16:40] Rose Springvale: yes, but they are OFF world tools. what about using in world tools better
[16:40] Moon Adamant: but i agree... participation of citizens in the political life will make communication more efficient as well too
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh
[16:40] Rose Springvale: even estate tools like gwyneth showed us, get information out
[16:40] Arria Perreault: like publish summary of each meeting, with key decisions
[16:40] Rose Springvale: group notices
[16:40] Rose Springvale: signs?
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (did I show that?...)
[16:40] Arria Perreault: transcripts are long to read
[16:40] Rose Springvale: mmhmm
[16:40] Justice Soothsayer: yep, even "forum on a prim"
[16:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* @ Arria — and they often don't reflect everything
[16:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, nice idea, Justice :D hehe
[16:41] Jamie Palisades: heh heh
[16:41] Rose Springvale shudders again at the use of "forum"
[16:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We can't use Government-in-a-Prim, that's taken up by Prokofy....
[16:41] Rose Springvale: lol
[16:41] Jamie Palisades: Arria, did you read the summaries we do now? -- I;d love to get a c ritique
[16:41] Justice Soothsayer: sorry to give you the heebie-jeebies, rose
[16:41] Moon Adamant: :)
[16:41] Rose Springvale: watch that! :)
[16:42] Jamie Palisades: but not today's topic :)
[16:42] Arria Perreault: yes, I did
[16:42] Jamie Palisades: I have a question (grin) when this one's finished
[16:42] Justice Soothsayer: brb
[16:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh ask now, Jamie!...
[16:42] Rose Springvale: (lol before rose beats this poor horse to death )
[16:42] Jamie Palisades: ok ...
[16:43] Arria Perreault: you know, every state has an official journal
[16:43] Arria Perreault: we should have one
[16:43] Jamie Palisades: .. when Arria's done :)
[16:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Indeed!.... instead, we have just the forums :/
[16:43] Jamie Palisades: ...How much should we hold factions responsible for their RA members? If an RA member behaves badly, can I expect their faction to give them reason to stop? (Because frankly I see a LOT of RA members ignore and defy their factions, and very few who actaully seem to be accountable ... across multiple factuions. I just do not see the use of factiosn if their RA memebrs are not striongl influnced by the platform and their own members. They become like football clubs .. everybody liked to yell and wear colors :P ... but with very little effect. Should factions have TEETH? :) And what should they bite?
[16:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's a tough one, Jamie, a faction telling other factions how to behave ;)
[16:44] Arria Perreault: in CSDF, we often discuss questions
[16:44] Arria Perreault: before the RA
[16:44] Arria Perreault: and we should continue
[16:44] Rose Springvale: should we require that of factions?
[16:44] Jon Seattle: Well, its a very interesting question -- I think CSDF has varied in how active our memberships has been
[16:44] Moon Adamant: yes, we do, every wednesday - and you're welcome to show by, btw
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, it's open
[16:45] Arria Perreault: but in same cases, the representant of a faction can vote against its faction
[16:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: true, that happens.
[16:45] Justice Soothsayer: ultimately, we can hold factions responsible for their RA members at the ballot box every 6 months
[16:45] Pip Torok: in practice the moving forces befing a faction is usually IN the RA!
[16:45] Moon Adamant: Justice is correct
[16:46] Moon Adamant: ultimate sanction is the vote sense
[16:46] Jon Seattle: Justice, I am not sure we can .. as long as our system is not very responsive to votes.
[16:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, it depends a bit, Pip. CSDF someone requests their representatives at the RA to vote according to what was discussed and voted on the CSDF meetings; often, however, there are unpredictable issues popping up on the agenda.
[16:46] Justice Soothsayer gave you Moon & Justice.
[16:46] Moon Adamant: yes
[16:47] Arria Perreault: yes, don't forget that I have negociate a certain freedom
[16:47] Jamie Palisades agrees with the math major and smiles
[16:47] Rose Springvale: freedom?
[16:47] Jon Seattle: :)
[16:47] Moon Adamant: Arria means frredom to do conscience votes
[16:47] Moon Adamant: freedom*
[16:47] Arria Perreault: yes
[16:47] Jamie Palisades: No Gor RA members!
[16:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn *coughs*
[16:47] Jamie Palisades: :)
[16:47] Rose Springvale: so that she might not folow the factions preferences?
[16:47] Moon Adamant: wb Rubai :)
[16:48] Rubaiyat Shatner: /thx
[16:48] Arria Perreault: in some cases
[16:48] Rose Springvale: as a non faction member, i'd be interested in knowing when that might occur, should you be elected
[16:48] Moon Adamant: we are a party of multiplicity, Rose
[16:48] Jamie Palisades: FWIW, Arria I think that was a very clear and fair way for you to agree to the job -- but I am not sure any other RA members feel any more bound :)
[16:48] Jon Seattle: Hi Rubai :)
[16:49] Rubaiyat Shatner: hey Jon
[16:49] Rose Springvale: not trying to be a troublemaker.. but wasnt' that a reason a former represenative from CSDF resigned?
[16:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Rose, jamie's question is a complex one for *us* to answer. For instance, I'm a very strong supporter of the general principle in the CDS that all organisations (and factions are organisations too!) should have their own internal procedures, with limited interference from the exterior, excpt, well, to comply with existing legislation...
[16:49] Arria Perreault: that's why I have negociated that condition before ...
[16:50] Rose Springvale: but if i'm voting for a faction. how do i know what i'm supporting then?
[16:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You read their manifestos :)
[16:50] Moon Adamant: one thing is sure: we are not a groupthink
[16:50] Moon Adamant: our manifesto is negotiated between our members
[16:50] Rose Springvale: hmm
[16:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They're usually a compromise among all active faction members — something they all managed to agree with.
[16:50] Moon Adamant: it's indeed a platform we all stand upon :)
[16:50] Arria Perreault: in every legislative branch in democratic countries, reprsentant can vote following their consciences
[16:50] Justice Soothsayer: yes, it is a platform we all worked on collaboratively and agree to
[16:50] Rose Springvale: then in your manifesto, is there a provision for "conscience votes?"
[16:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly. Now, individual members might have their preferences, of course...
[16:51] Rose Springvale: so that one member wouldn't need to negociate?
[16:51] Arria Perreault: it's only in same cases
[16:51] Rose Springvale: sorry, i'm just trying to be informed
[16:51] Moon Adamant: possibly in our charter
[16:51] Justice Soothsayer: and not everything can be covered in a manifesto, though with the length of ours, it sure looks like we tried.
[16:51] Moon Adamant: lol, yes!
[16:51] Jon Seattle: :D
[16:51] Rose Springvale: so what sorts of things are part of this negociated exception then?
[16:52] Moon Adamant: Rose, it's the platform
[16:52] Arria Perreault: the vote against the Chancellor was a good example
[16:52] Justice Soothsayer: stuff happens during the term, but CSDF members have a tradition of consulting with the membership, and we are pledged to continue
[16:52] Arria Perreault: I had voted nay
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh my. We have on teh CSDF's charter a philosophical principle: equality vs. freedom
[16:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "Freedom and equality are not contradictory. Equality is the condition for the development of individual personality. Equality and personal freedom are indivisible."
[16:52] Jamie Palisades whispers - -- most importantly, she doesn't have to wear red t-shirts --
[16:53] Moon Adamant: lol jamie
[16:53] Rose Springvale: was there a faction position on that vote though Arria?
[16:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the CSDF is a faction where each member is free to have an individual opinion, but we work collectively towards a common cause that binds us.
[16:53] Jon Seattle: There was not, unfortunatly
[16:53] Arria Perreault: I don't know
[16:53] Rose Springvale: ok
[16:53] Arria Perreault: I don't think
[16:53] Rose Springvale: thank you
[16:54] Jon Seattle: As Gwyn said, we do not manage to catch every issue in time..
[16:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, Rose, there is always some leeway — no matter how detailed the planning on the CSDF meetings might be, there are always exceptions, and each CSDF member has to deal with them individually...
[16:54] Rose Springvale: well
[16:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not like the CSDF has a tradition of stalling a vote in the RA just to quickly meet with everybody and see where we stand. Although, granted, this *did* happen once or twice.
[16:55] Rose Springvale: as i read those transcripts, and if your faction met weekly, it appears it would have come ut
[16:55] Rose Springvale: apparently the frustration was long term
[16:55] Rose Springvale: :)
[16:55] You decline Catherine House, SupportforHealing (203, 206, 30) from A group member named Extropia DaSilva.
[16:55] Jamie Palisades: Say I have one :) even though there re 3 factions with 1, 2 and 3(or 4) candidates -- is it still possible for any one of them to "take first place" under current voting math?, even if they field fewer candidates?
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: mmmh Jon's our math expert
[16:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[16:56] Jon Seattle: As I understand the constitution, we have two kinds of elections, one between factions, and others within each faction.
[16:56] Moon Adamant: hi there Brian :)
[16:56] Rose Springvale: hey brian!
[16:56] Jon Seattle: So factions win seats and fill them, at least at the moment.
[16:56] Brian Livingston dropped int oteh middle of something... :p
[16:57] Jon Seattle: Hi Brian :)
[16:57] Rubaiyat Shatner: hi brian
[16:57] Arria Perreault: Hi brian :-)
[16:57] Rose Springvale: just a little debate pre election
[16:57] Moon Adamant: stay, stay... it's CSDF open debate
[16:57] Brian Livingston is very confused :p
[16:57] Rose Springvale: and you get to talk next...
[16:57] Rose Springvale: lol
[16:57] Justice Soothsayer: welcome, Brian. It is meet the candidates night.
[16:57] Jamie Palisades: Have six beers Bri - cures any flaws
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But if I may add something... one of the points in our agenda for the next term is to change the election model so that the faction with the majority of the votes also gets the majority of the seats on the RA. This, we feel, is the fairest form of representative democracy — and one thing that the current system unfortunately does not allow.
[16:57] Jon Seattle: jamie, did that help answer?
[16:57] Jamie Palisades: (hic)
[16:57] Rose Springvale: and then we want to know about the futbol team!
[16:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (and hi, Brian!)
[16:58] Jamie Palisades: Jon - for THIS election, can any one of the three factionsget LRA theoerticall, or does aa cation who fields more candidatest have a math advnatge?
[16:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe Rose — we have a budget of at least L$5000/month, I'm sure that the football team can be sponsored out ot it :)
[16:58] Jamie Palisades: that's what I was really wondering :)
"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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July 2008 Elections CSDF Debate with the candidates (2/4)

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[16:59] Rose Springvale: shouldn't be any change should it? as we really only place factions?
[16:59] Moon Adamant: i would agree with Rose
[16:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Rose, but the faction with the majority of votes doesn't get the majority of seats...
[16:59] Rose Springvale: i meant for this election, jamies question.
[16:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah sorry
[16:59] Moon Adamant: since you vote faction first then mebers
[16:59] Rose Springvale: and i agree its a problem Gwyn
[17:00] Pip Torok: my bed time folks ... byeeee
[17:00] Rose Springvale: nigh pip. see you tomorrow
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need Jon to answer that …— my feeling is that the answer is "no"
[17:00] Jamie Palisades: NIte Pip, thaks again
[17:00] Rubaiyat Shatner: by pip and thanks again
[17:00] Arria Perreault: good night, Pip
[17:00] Moon Adamant: so it's irrelevant if a faction 1 or 100 candidates
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for coming, Pip, see you tomorrow!
[17:00] Moon Adamant: night Pip, sleeep well
[17:00] Jon Seattle: lol, let me read back.. one sec.
[17:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
[17:01] Jon Seattle: As I understand it, the faction with the largest Borda score gets the LRA right now.
[17:01] Jamie Palisades: mm hmm
[17:01] Justice Soothsayer: and don't we use RPS to break ties?
[17:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we do :D
[17:01] Jamie Palisades: cis is POSSIBLE for a fac w 1 or 2 candidates to beat one with 3 or 4?
[17:01] Jon Seattle: So, for example, if two factions were to get three seats -- one may still have a larger Borda
[17:02] Jon Seattle: jamie, yes
[17:02] Jon Seattle: the faction Borda does not depend on the number of candidates
[17:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[17:02] Jon Seattle: basically candidates depend only on the second kind of -- within faction -- elections.
[17:02] Jamie Palisades nods- there ya go - thx- useful for people to know
[17:03] Jon Seattle: the faction vs faction election depends only on reaching the minimum enrollment
[17:03] Jon Seattle: yes
[17:03] Rose Springvale: it IS impossible to close out a faction though, correct?
[17:03] Rose Springvale: everyone will get at least one seat?
[17:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Unless there are more factions than seats... :)
[17:03] Jon Seattle: Rose, the way the math works, it is very unlikley
[17:03] Justice Soothsayer: only if no one voted for their own faction!
[17:04] Jon Seattle: it is possible, but basically the seat allocation approach tends to even things up quite a bit.
[17:05] Justice Soothsayer: but it is *possible* with 3 factions in an election that one faction could take 5 seats and the others end up with 1 each, though highly unlikely.
[17:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes.
[17:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That would be extreme.
[17:05] Jon Seattle: well, possible in that case also depends on the total number of voters
[17:05] Jon Seattle: it might take a large number of voters to do that :)
[17:05] Jon Seattle: its a strange system
[17:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, right, like 90%
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or more
[17:06] Justice Soothsayer: As we grow in size, such extreme possibilities become even more unlikely.
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... mmmh
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn invokes her powers as moderator
[17:06] Jamie Palisades: I apologize for this detour. but it's NOT a well understood system I fear.
[17:06] Jon Seattle: well, because the formula rounds, you have to have large enough differences for the rounding not to knock off the difference :)
[17:06] Gwyneth Llewelyn: because we'd like to talk a bit about the rest too ;)
[17:06] Jamie Palisades: :)
[17:06] Arria Perreault: sorry, but it's very late ....
[17:07] Moon Adamant: Night, Arria :)
[17:07] Justice Soothsayer: Jamie wins the Understatement Award.
[17:07] Jon Seattle: so total number of voters matters as well, not just percentage :)
[17:07] Arria Perreault: good night all :-)
[17:07] Rose Springvale: oh man, and award and a halo
[17:07] Rose Springvale: i'm jeaolus now!
[17:07] Rose Springvale: night arria
[17:07] Rose Springvale: good luck!
[17:07] Jamie Palisades: Thank you again for being willing to serve, Arria :)
[17:07] Brian Livingston: hehe
[17:07] Brian Livingston: g'night Arria
[17:07] Arria Perreault: thank you :-))
[17:07] Jon Seattle: Night and thans Arria :)
[17:07] Justice Soothsayer: bye Arria
[17:07] Arria Perreault: bye bye
[17:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you so much for coming!
[17:07] Moon Adamant: yes, thank you Arria - and Justice too
[17:07] Arria Perreault: :-))
[17:07] Jon Seattle: Indeed :)
[17:08] Rose Springvale: lol brian
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, we still have Justice here,
[17:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so the next step is getting more citizens to participate and have a saying in the CDS.
[17:09] Jon Seattle: (brb)
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Recently there were disturbing comments and rumours that organisations in the CDS should be somehow limited in scope...
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, the CSDF wants exactly the opposite!
[17:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Our experience is that citizens, working inside their own organisations, are a very strong force to make the CDS dynamic
[17:09] Justice Soothsayer: unfortunately, I have to leave for a little while (urgen phone call)
[17:09] Justice Soothsayer: *urgent
[17:10] Justice Soothsayer: be back soon, I hope
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Of course, Justice!...
[17:10] Moon Adamant: we understand that participation is not reserved solely to the political areana - there must be other ways in which citizens can participate in the community
[17:10] Jamie Palisades: same to you then Justice, Thank you for stadning for election :)
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Nobody in the CDS should feel they're "left out" just because they don't want to be a member of a faction,
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or a member of the Executive
[17:10] Rose Springvale wonders if it was the red phone...
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL Rose!!!
[17:10] Moon Adamant: lol
[17:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: tsk!
[17:11] Rose Springvale: :)
[17:11] Brian Livingston: lol
[17:11] Jamie Palisades: yeah Gwyn -how do we DO that?
[17:11] Jamie Palisades: enfranchse the unfactioned
[17:11] Moon Adamant: encourage organizations to form
[17:11] Rose Springvale listens carefully
[17:11] Moon Adamant: make then public-chartered, like the NG
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And this means explaining (much better!) how that actually works.
[17:11] Moon Adamant: allocate resources if need be
[17:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We used to have Aliasi's fantastic "Civic Classes"
[17:12] Rose Springvale: wow, that would be good.
[17:12] Jamie Palisades: (captured anywhere?)
[17:12] Moon Adamant: for instance, the upper floor of this biergarten is ready to take an intern curator for the MoCA - an old plan of Delia
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Mmmh no clue, Jamie, although I might have some old slides too
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: There are also new organisations popping up,
[17:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: like the Chamber of Commerce
[17:13] Rose Springvale: wait
[17:13] Jamie Palisades smiles and rattles his slides-begging-bowl at the flower girl
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: this is the kind of things we want to see more!
[17:13] Rose Springvale: there already was a traders organization
[17:13] Rose Springvale: so this is duplication?
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Jamie, I have to look them in my inventory; and, remember, they might be hopelessly outdated!!
[17:13] Jamie Palisades: nope we repealed the old moribund ones
[17:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Like Jamie said.
[17:13] Rose Springvale: ah
[17:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have a good tradition of getting rid of old organisatios that never worked and re-found them ;)
[17:14] Brian Livingston: The traders association was an independent organization. Can the RA disbanda citizrn organization if it is not publically chartered?
[17:14] Rose Springvale: smile
[17:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: E.g. Old Guild + Neufreistadt School = New Guild ;)
[17:14] Rose Springvale: i worked with the traders organization for Oktoberfest
[17:14] Brian Livingston thinks he is still a member of the defunct Traders ORg
[17:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Brian, theoretically, no.
[17:14] Rose Springvale: not as much participation as i'd liked, but it wasn't dead
[17:15] Moon Adamant: i believe that UDHR wins here
[17:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why shouldn't we have two, then? :)
[17:15] Moon Adamant: if i want to do a CoCII, nobody can stop me
[17:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly.
[17:15] Jamie Palisades: wins what Moon?
[17:15] Brian Livingston: Oooh, Chamber Wars!
[17:15] Moon Adamant: applies* sorry
[17:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Wins the argument: we can always have more than one organisation with overlapping roles.
[17:15] Rose Springvale: i can see it now
[17:15] Rose Springvale: chamber pots flinging
[17:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[17:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn hands over her spare pitchfork at Rose
[17:16] Brian Livingston: May the most ruthless industrialist win!
[17:16] Moon Adamant: and in fact
[17:16] Rose Springvale: ooh, can i have horns too? :)
[17:16] Moon Adamant: some proposals for the actiual CoC were extraordinarily monopolistic
[17:17] Moon Adamant: and some even overstepped gov roles
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
[17:17] Moon Adamant: so the possibility of free association is also a civil guarantee
[17:17] Moon Adamant: civic*
[17:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Each time a certain aspect of government is 'delegated' to a private organisation, it requires a public charter, approved by the RA.
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For instance, we could have an Institute for Event Promotion
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: privately run
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and sponsored by citizens
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, promoting events is a role of the Executive.
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So it'd require a public charter.
[17:18] Moon Adamant: but we do believe that this delegation is possible
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, we could certainly have an Institute for Political Science :)
[17:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which would be fully private.
[17:19] Moon Adamant: and that it may be efficient, and bring citizens who do not want to concern with politics into action for teh community
[17:19] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly, Moon
[17:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: As the faction that wants to make things — we also want others to make things as well — and give them tools (education, eg, explaining how; opportunity; and legislation, eg. a framework) to do so
[17:20] Moon Adamant: political participation throgh NGOs may even reduce the size of the state
[17:20] Rose Springvale: oh, not Male them?
[17:20] Jamie Palisades: hm?
[17:20] Moon Adamant: hm?
[17:20] Rose Springvale: lol the sign in the forum in cn
[17:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You've lost me there, Rose :)
[17:20] Rose Springvale: by the other faction
[17:20] Rose Springvale: reads
[17:20] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh!.... I haven't seen that yet lol
[17:21] Rose Springvale: the faction that wants to male things, and we dont' resign
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ROFL
[17:21] Moon Adamant: lol
[17:21] Rose Springvale: and
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: omg! what a Freudian slip!
[17:21] Moon Adamant: male things hmmmm
[17:21] Rose Springvale: you really must see the campaign posters
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's MT naked again? :)
[17:21] Moon Adamant: like making a pee standing up?
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL oh my
[17:21] Jamie Palisades: siiiigh
[17:21] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, we're the No Drama faction!!
[17:22] Rose Springvale: lol
[17:22] Moon Adamant: i want to know!
[17:22] Rose Springvale: all their candidates are naked i believe
[17:22] Jamie Palisades stifles somethign unintelligible
[17:22] Brian Livingston: lol
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so, sure, if a faction wants to Male things, and pee in public, have them do it :)
[17:22] Moon Adamant: i dunno what are the male things
[17:22] Rose Springvale: i believe it is a typo :)
[17:22] Jamie Palisades: well moon
[17:22] Rose Springvale: though who knows?
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-)
[17:22] Jamie Palisades: it;s pretty much refusing to ask for directions when drivingt
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn *chuckles*
[17:22] Moon Adamant: and dunno if as a female, i should vote in a faction that wanst to do male things :)
[17:22] Jamie Palisades: beer
[17:22] Jamie Palisades: hm
[17:22] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol Moon :))))))))
[17:22] Jamie Palisades: maybe just those two
[17:22] Moon Adamant: AH
[17:23] Moon Adamant: that kind of thing
[17:23] Rose Springvale: well
[17:23] Rose Springvale: there might be one or two more ;)
[17:23] Moon Adamant: i can see them refusing to ask for directions when driving....
[17:23] Rose Springvale: but i of course wouldn't know :)
[17:23] Jamie Palisades hits his head : d'[email protected]!
[17:23] Jamie Palisades: right!
[17:23] Brian Livingston: Thats ounds apt
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Anyway :)
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: C. Developing our Economy
[17:23] Jamie Palisades: invade Arab countrries! sorry
[17:23] Rose Springvale: oh, man we have to be serious?
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (we might ANNEX some, Jamie!)
[17:23] Rose Springvale: hehe
[17:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ;)
[17:23] Jamie Palisades: PDP!
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What's PDP??
[17:24] Moon Adamant: i propose we annex Caledon
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oooh
[17:24] Jamie Palisades: ew
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need a few more sims and more population to do that, Moon :)
[17:24] Jamie Palisades: can we repeal that plaid?
[17:24] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, point C!
[17:25] Jamie Palisades smiles and zips it - for now
[17:25] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is about: expansion; building; training our citizens to increase their skills (in SL or even in RL!); getting quality builds/objects/events; promoting the commerce of quality products and services
[17:25] Moon Adamant: another point in which citizen's participation is fundamental
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The idea is to grow, yes, but focusing on quality; that doesn't come overnight, or just becomes reality because we say so:
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it requires citizens getting trained to create quality products and services
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now, we already have at least one organisation able to do that
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the MoCA, in a sense, too — by driving artists to the CDS
[17:26] Jamie Palisades: A toga shop?
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Jamie!
[17:26] Jamie Palisades smiles
[17:26] Gwyneth Llewelyn: *sigh*
[17:27] Moon Adamant: lol
[17:27] Jon Seattle: :D
[17:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, even I can believe that we could sell *high quality togas* ;)
[17:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that requires explaining how to make them properly...
[17:27] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and also the willingness to learn, of course ;)
[17:27] Rose Springvale: may i ask
[17:27] Moon Adamant: and some historic research...
[17:28] Jamie Palisades: sorry :) which institution did you mean, Gwyn? faculty I assume?
[17:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Jamie.
[17:28] Rose Springvale: i need to do a scroll up...go on while i do
[17:28] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That's the resumed version of what we propose, anyway.
[17:28] Moon Adamant: brb
[17:28] Rose Springvale: but
[17:28] Rose Springvale: if
[17:29] Rose Springvale: 7:23] Gwyneth Llewelyn: C. Developing our Economy
[17:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Enhancing citizen's skills; promoting the high quality products and services; focus on the high-quality market for those.
[17:29] Rose Springvale: is one of your goals
[17:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, definitely.
[17:29] Rose Springvale: how can we criticize the toga shop
[17:29] Rose Springvale: when it seems recognized that it brings in business?
[17:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I wasn't! :) That was Jamie!
[17:29] Rose Springvale: mind
[17:29] Rose Springvale: oh
[17:29] Rose Springvale: okay. so you like the toga shop?
[17:29] Jamie Palisades: :D oopsie
[17:29] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I have personally absolutely nothing against it,
[17:29] Jamie Palisades flicks a towel at rose
[17:29] Rose Springvale: really. hmm
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: however, in my mind, we should encourage selling *good* togas ;)
[17:30] Jamie Palisades: stop picking on the poor politicans Rosalita
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or historically correct ones.
[17:30] Rose Springvale: but who makes the decisions?
[17:30] Rose Springvale: and how does that mesh with all the freedom
[17:30] Rose Springvale: ?
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: For now, we have an organisation created from the ground up from specialists
[17:30] Jamie Palisades: actualyl THIS is close to the herat of where I thik a social democrat party IS different
[17:30] Rose Springvale: sorry, jp, philosophy....
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oh lol Rose
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, that's philosophy —
[17:30] Jamie Palisades: more control more dircetion more learning - :) less freedom
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: one thing is the individual choice
[17:30] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hey, I sell awful animations too!!
[17:31] Jamie Palisades: more zoning :)
[17:31] Brian Livingston: Zoning is your friend!
[17:31] Rose Springvale: uh huh
[17:31] Brian Livingston pipes down :p
[17:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, I'm not going to expect the CDS to *promote* them :)
[17:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand,
[17:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we *do* have quality goods & services,
[17:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I expect those to be "case studies" for excellence
[17:31] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and that the CDS ties itself to those
[17:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: as a brand.
[17:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We actually *used* to do that in the remote past with Neufreistadt.
[17:32] Rose Springvale: i've raised this issue in guild, particularly where we have approval issues... and as we move forward to "branding".. how do we tell people
[17:32] Rose Springvale: your toga isnt' good enough...without making it about personalities?
[17:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Brian's here — so he remembers, back a few years ago, how detailed his promotional budget was.
[17:32] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, Rose
[17:33] Brian Livingston: Oh, for CN
[17:33] Jamie Palisades: :)
[17:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (yes, Brian!)
[17:33] Jamie Palisades: promotion for the CN opening? yes there WAS a lot
[17:33] Rose Springvale: remembers being sucked into brians marketing web....
[17:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, Rose, let me try something else as an example...
[17:33] Moon Adamant: back
[17:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Governments might sponsor artistic film festivals
[17:33] Rose Springvale: hi moon :)
[17:33] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but you also have Hollywood to promote blockbusters :)
[17:33] Rose Springvale: ah, i see
[17:33] Rose Springvale: but
[17:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Blockbusters make a HELL lot of more money than quality movies!
[17:34] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So we don't need to promote *those*.
[17:34] Moon Adamant: i think that hmm sportive competition raises the bar
[17:34] Rose Springvale: sure, but
[17:34] Moon Adamant: if i have a toga shop
[17:34] Rose Springvale: you'd have to wear them moon!
[17:34] Moon Adamant: and someone at my door opens a better one, then i'll try to improve my products
[17:34] Moon Adamant: BUT
[17:35] Moon Adamant: it's important that we give people the tools to be able to improve their stuff
[17:35] Moon Adamant: at least basic skills
[17:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, exactly. In Moon's example the question might be: "but how do I improve my products?" Well, our answer is: "at the Faculty [or any other siilar organisation] we can train you how"
[17:35] Brian Livingston: I actualyl don't think the government should really be promoting any specific businesses unless it makes the opportunity available to all who want ot participate. OOtherwise it seems ripe for accusations of discrimination and favoritism.
[17:35] Moon Adamant: so that they can move on from that
"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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July 2008 Elections CSDF Debate with the candidates (3/4)

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

17:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: brian, yes, ultimately we won't be promoting vendor X or Y
[17:35] Moon Adamant: no, not at all
[17:35] Rose Springvale: i like competition
[17:36] Rose Springvale: and would love to see us sponsor more
[17:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but more conceptual ideas — eg. "the best historically accurate garments are found in Colonia Nova"
[17:36] Moon Adamant: the CoC should promote ALL vendors
[17:36] Rose Springvale: "best toga" for certin festivals
[17:36] Rose Springvale: 'best lederhosen"
[17:36] Rose Springvale: etc
[17:36] Brian Livingston: Ok, I do see the distinction Gwyn, Thanks for theclarification
[17:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CoC is, indeed, a trader's association, which has as one of their objectives to promote their own members — but that's ok, they're private
[17:37] Rose Springvale: and bringing this back to the faction
[17:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The CDS might just say: "we have a CoC that promotes our high quality designers — come here to shop"
[17:37] Rose Springvale: would you support allocating funds to such organisation?
[17:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: To the CoC? Yes, sure!
[17:37] Rose Springvale: interesting
[17:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "We support measures to build business in the CDS, to support CDS artisans and promote their high quality goods. We want to see a voluntary, independent 'Chamber of Commerce' come into being which addresses issues such as advertising and building a reputation for quality."
[17:38] Rose Springvale: but why should CDS funds be used for that?
[17:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, not just sending them a few million L$
[17:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "why"?
[17:38] Jamie Palisades: hm
[17:38] Rose Springvale: yes, many cds citizens don't trade goods
[17:38] Jamie Palisades: well Rose
[17:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Building up a reputation in SL is a key factor to success.
[17:38] Jamie Palisades: you put terrific effort personally into trying to make CN a commercial center :)
[17:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We should have a reputation of being able to do quality products & services
[17:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not just talk! :)
[17:39] Rose Springvale: indeed. personal
[17:39] Jamie Palisades: would it have helped if the community cooperated?
[17:39] Moon Adamant: perhaps the example of a successfull trade would interest more citizens into selling goods
[17:39] Jamie Palisades smiles
[17:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It would bring more people here too — a few might stay
[17:39] Rose Springvale: really?
[17:39] Rose Springvale: not sure i agree with that one.
[17:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Others will just hop by, come to an event, and tell their friends: "oh, I was at those crazy democratic guys, but they do GREAT parties!"
[17:40] Jamie Palisades: well ;) do you think people go to Caledon for the shopping, Rose?
[17:40] Moon Adamant: if there would be info about the CDS available, why not
[17:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But their friends might ask: "what crazy democratic guys?..."
[17:40] Brian Livingston: I have ,for the record
[17:40] Moon Adamant: don't forget that for the moment we are a set of pretty sims
[17:40] Moon Adamant: for a visitor
[17:40] Rose Springvale: you have what brian?
[17:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, we only offer architecture
[17:40] Moon Adamant: who doesn't even dream is on one of teh oldest community of SL
[17:40] Moon Adamant: for instance
[17:40] Brian Livingston: Sorry, I have gone to Caledon specifically for the purpose of shopping
[17:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Brian has gone there to shop :)
[17:40] Rose Springvale: ah
[17:40] Rose Springvale: okay
[17:40] Moon Adamant: a recent citizen, interested in politics
[17:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, they have a reputation of having "the best steampunk shops in SL"
[17:41] Rose Springvale: i shop there when i need somethign for a party there lol
[17:41] Moon Adamant: told me she took a YEAR to find us
[17:41] Moon Adamant: and we should be more known
[17:41] Moon Adamant: as a political community
[17:41] Rose Springvale: i agree, but will more toga shops help that?
[17:42] Moon Adamant: as a stable community
[17:42] Rose Springvale: will supporting more toga shops help that?
[17:42] Moon Adamant: they will at least bring more visitors in to whom we can tell our history and our stories
[17:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)
[17:42] Moon Adamant: and maybe one in a score will stay
[17:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not just "More Toga Shops", Rose :)
[17:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's also, say, promoting the exhibitions at the Monastery and the MoCA... or at the Guild
[17:43] Moon Adamant: mind that i am always pairing the Commerce with the need to inform the rest of the workld of who we are
[17:43] Jamie Palisades: rose: yes :) that's my take. A few great shopping bijous WILL help
[17:43] Jamie Palisades: fwiw
[17:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We need an Armidi shop ;)
[17:43] Rose Springvale: as someone who brought in several top designers for just that reason
[17:44] Rose Springvale: i don't know that i agree
[17:44] Jamie Palisades: and I believe the CSDF position is to promote that via things like the CofC :) if I am hearing correctly
[17:44] Rose Springvale: but maybe it was just me :)
[17:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: jamie: yes.
[17:44] Moon Adamant: but perhapshere the themes will help us
[17:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the MoCA & Monastery for events... and who knows what more,
[17:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: "The Schloß Elegant Ball Association"
[17:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the football teams!
[17:45] Moon Adamant: but also
[17:45] Moon Adamant: give room and confidence to teh citizens to let them spontaneously organize themselves
[17:45] Moon Adamant: into common objectives
[17:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, they shouldn't "wait" for the government to givethem guidelines or answers to the question "can we promote ourselves?"
[17:45] Rose Springvale: like the united artists?
[17:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Instead they should have mechanisms in place to get support from the government
[17:46] Moon Adamant: a good example, yes
[17:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: This ties neatly into point D. Preserving and Developing Our Land
[17:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Which is "Content is King".... lol
[17:47] Jamie Palisades: ?
[17:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe that's an old phrase from the early days of SL actually
[17:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: SL = Content + Community
[17:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Note that content is not just pretty prims glued together
[17:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but giving people reasons to have *fun* in the CDS
[17:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Why are we mostly empty?... because
[17:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: a) there is little entertainment available
[17:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: b) there are few interesting shops ;)
[17:48] Moon Adamant: well
[17:48] Moon Adamant: the GNMP survey
[17:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: However, we all know that when we DO an event, we get the sims full...
[17:48] Moon Adamant: revealed a great need for events and for community actions
[17:48] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
[17:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not only getting volunteers to run them.... I know that's the usual excuse,
[17:49] Moon Adamant: more than for making money or shopping
[17:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but actually a lot of people do them anyway — someties they're just afraid to ask!
[17:49] Moon Adamant: but i think events is not just parties
[17:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: exactly!
[17:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's Pip reading poems!
[17:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or Naftali playing music!
[17:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: it's playing football under the Marktplatz :)
[17:50] Brian Livingston: I've thoguht of the need for an organization similar to the FFRC, which serves as a foundation that provides grants to hosts of events and hosts its own events
[17:50] Moon Adamant: and i would like to see exterior content being nrought into the cDS, like charities and cultural orgs
[17:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Brian: would you like to head that organisation? :-)
[17:50] Brian Livingston ducks beneath the table
[17:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You0d get full support from us, I agree that is the kind of things we desperately need!....
[17:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[17:50] Jon Seattle: :D
[17:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but yes, you've got the point there!
[17:51] Moon Adamant: always teh dangers of talking in the CDS....
[17:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: See, Rubaiyat has just dropped by at the right time :)
[17:51] Brian Livingston: It's something I mighjt consider leadign a discussion on and seeign where it goes from there
[17:51] Jon Seattle: Have to start for home.. very nice to see everyone :)
[17:51] Brian Livingston: or engaging in a community discussion on
[17:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ruba, Brian is suggesting that we get a local equivalent of the FFRC :)
[17:51] Moon Adamant hugs Jon
[17:51] Jon Seattle hugs Moon
[17:51] Rose Springvale: /waves to jon from way over here
[17:51] Rubaiyat Shatner: well the ffrc is in a place of change
[17:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: have a nice walk back home, Jon :)
[17:52] Jamie Palisades: Cheers jon :) thanks again for the voting booth work
[17:52] Brian Livingston: My knowledge of the FFRC is from a while back,so I am sure it's much different than from when I used to see it
[17:52] Rubaiyat Shatner: why don't we adopt them too? or are you thinking to support specifically local things
[17:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'd LOVE to support them directly, RUbaiyat!
[17:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Look at how Caledon works —
[17:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: they have "local chapters" of almost every possible organisation in SL
[17:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and in some cases, they host their HQ.
[17:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't see why we couldn't do the same...
[17:53] Brian Livingston: So a CDS Bureau of the FFRC or somethign similar
[17:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If the FFRC is looking currently for a permanent place,
[17:53] Rose Springvale: it is interesting.. we offer somethinb very different from caledon.. i'd like to see us come up with new ideas
[17:53] Moon Adamant: specially as we expand at a faster rate
[17:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and even a (minor) source of funding, we COULD host them.
[17:54] Rubaiyat Shatner: we should talk to them, I think it would help both organizations
[17:54] Brian Livingston: I almost think the CDs should *consider* offerign either discounted or tier-free land for public service organizationson a limited basis. Somethign to examine.
[17:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (for the sake of anyone who doesn't know what the FFRC is: The Foundation For Rich Content, started in 2005 or so, which raises money to fund projects with artistic and cultural relevance (as decided by their board)
[17:54] Rose Springvale: hmm
[17:55] Rubaiyat Shatner: Brian, I am surprised y'all haven't formally suggested something like that
[17:55] Rubaiyat Shatner: socially responsible projects have a home in the CDS
[17:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn sees an objection forming behind Rose's green eyes
[17:55] Jamie Palisades: this is DARN interesting, yes
[17:55] Rose Springvale: no no
[17:55] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :-)
[17:55] Brian Livingston: I think anythign to bring organizations that would create a more dynamic environment is worth considerign subsidizing
[17:55] Rose Springvale: not objecting
[17:55] Rubaiyat Shatner: that sort of thing, perhaps work on a land grant thing instead of cash
[17:56] Rose Springvale: but
[17:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not yet, at least? :-)
[17:56] Rubaiyat Shatner: or offer matching grants
[17:56] Rose Springvale: maybe private initiative?
[17:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The FFRC is private...
[17:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We wouldn't "absorb" it into government,
[17:56] Rubaiyat Shatner: how about to help worthy causes get a start?
[17:56] Rose Springvale: so a private citizen might be albe to offer space?
[17:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but certainly propose a grant... or give them a public building to use...
[17:56] Rubaiyat Shatner: yeah we don't need more bureaucracy here
[17:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or that too, Rose, why not?
[17:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, we have enough, RUba :)
[17:57] Rose Springvale: and lots of unused buildings!
[17:57] Rubaiyat Shatner: I personally paid the tier on the MoCA for what felt like a year
[17:57] Rose Springvale: oh wow. thanks for doing that Ruaiyat
[17:57] Rubaiyat Shatner: exactly
[17:57] Jamie Palisades nods
[17:57] Rubaiyat Shatner: use government space to promote social goods
[17:57] Moon Adamant: thank you Rubai
[17:58] Rubaiyat Shatner: oh, no problem, it needed a start
[17:58] Rose Springvale: or even non government. We have lots of people who own land to be citizens
[17:58] Rose Springvale: and not interested in actually using buildings
[17:58] Rubaiyat Shatner: maybe we could get them to donate it back to the city for this sort of a campaign?
[17:59] Moon Adamant: hmmm, there is a citizenship problem with that
[17:59] Moon Adamant: but atm
[17:59] Moon Adamant: the NG is doing a survey of gov spaces
[17:59] Brian Livingston: Or a chartered organization to organize the offerings and solicit organizatiosn to move in, but retain the ownership for the actual private owner?
[17:59] Rubaiyat Shatner: well they would "own" the land just lease it back for nothing...
[17:59] Jamie Palisades agrees with RS - not a problem
[18:00] Rubaiyat Shatner: it would probably have to be a lease too, for stability's sake
[18:00] Moon Adamant: which will tell us what spaces are public which coudl be used for such things
[18:00] Brian Livingston: There is some kind of workable solution for that
[18:00] Rubaiyat Shatner: and hey while we are at it I want to say that I am committed to being less factional in the RA, and more focused on representing the CDS
[18:00] Rose Springvale: smiles
[18:00] Rubaiyat Shatner: I think we have more in common than we have differences
[18:01] Moon Adamant: that's great to hear, Rubai
[18:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Rubai, that+s good :))
[18:01] Rubaiyat Shatner: and if we "play politics" for it's own sake we all suffer
[18:01] Rubaiyat Shatner: as citizens
[18:01] Moon Adamant: i totally agree
[18:01] Rose Springvale: copies this to clipboard. seems she heard those words last campaign....
[18:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Alas, so true — we should be pooling the good ideas together and get them approved and roll them out
[18:01] Rubaiyat Shatner: we can't lose good hardworking people over politics
[18:02] Moon Adamant: politics is a service paid to the community, not an end on itself
[18:02] Rubaiyat Shatner: agreed, and I would be in the CSDF if I weren't already taken
[18:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[18:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: thank you I guess :)
[18:02] Moon Adamant: eheheh thank you
[18:02] Rubaiyat Shatner: actually it works better this way
[18:02] Rubaiyat Shatner: we can bridge
[18:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn smiles :)
[18:02] Moon Adamant: :)
[18:03] Rubaiyat Shatner: so I caught a bit earlier when you were talking platform, and there are a few areas that I think we can plan to step up to right offf
[18:03] Rubaiyat Shatner: the big thing is the body of law
[18:03] Rubaiyat Shatner: how can citizens understand it if we cannot?
[18:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (oh, btw, I wanted to ask your permission to post the transcript of this session, Ruba...)
[18:04] Rose Springvale: hmm
[18:04] Rubaiyat Shatner: oh sure, BUT
[18:04] Rose Springvale: you are going to post this?
[18:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if you're ok with it, ROse...
[18:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if not, I wont :)
[18:04] Brian Livingston notes the upcoming Code Reorg bill coming to the RA this week which should help a little.
[18:04] Rubaiyat Shatner: I am speaking as an individual, and not representing my faction here. For information on the DPU please consult our platform to which I fully subscribe.
[18:04] Rose Springvale: its okay
[18:05] Rubaiyat Shatner: ( - :
[18:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I'm sure they won't kill you for speaking your mind :-)
[18:05] Rubaiyat Shatner: who is the archivist for the RA & the SC?
[18:05] Rose Springvale: lol
[18:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: uh-oh!
[18:05] Rose Springvale: yes, who is that?
[18:05] Rubaiyat Shatner: well, I want to be clear
[18:05] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[18:05] Moon Adamant: is there one?
[18:05] Brian Livingston: The LRA and Dean respectivly,I suppose
[18:06] Brian Livingston: as there aern't any apinted archviists at this time, I don't believe
[18:06] Rose Springvale: i think pel was the last official one for SC
[18:06] Rubaiyat Shatner: because I had a badly ending discussion earlier for lack of clarity on that point
[18:06] Rose Springvale: and let see
[18:06] Rose Springvale: pel logged in July 5
[18:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn wonders how Rose knows that
[18:07] Rose Springvale: any group in which he's a member shows last log in
[18:07] Rubaiyat Shatner: I would like to see those two get together and propose a single solution (or options)
[18:07] Brian Livingston: groups
[18:07] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ahhh thse things still show on groups? ok
[18:08] Rose Springvale: either that or rose is psychic too :)
[18:08] Rubaiyat Shatner: who are our experts in our legal code?
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aha.
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: 'nobody', but by default, the SC :)
[18:08] Jamie Palisades chortles
[18:08] Brian Livingston: lol
[18:08] Gwyneth Llewelyn: If they aren't, nobody is :D
[18:08] Rose Springvale: "lega code or codes"
[18:08] Jamie Palisades: well we have a bunch of zen philospohers who thik nthey are :D
[18:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, which makes it much more fun that way, Jamie :)
[18:09] Rubaiyat Shatner: code being plural here ( - : - )
[18:09] Jamie Palisades: the constitution .. is .. out there in the ether dude ...
[18:09] Moon Adamant: i think it's more like a memory collective sometimes
[18:09] Gwyneth Llewelyn: One of them at least, Jamie ;)
[18:09] Jamie Palisades: no, sweet, it;s an abomination :) topic for anothe rday though
[18:09] Rubaiyat Shatner: well lets make a committment to clear this up by january
[18:09] Rubaiyat Shatner: for the sake of our citizens
[18:09] Rose Springvale: um
[18:10] Rubaiyat Shatner: um?
[18:10] Rose Springvale: a commitment to clear it up by september would be appreciated
[18:10] Rose Springvale: :)
[18:10] Rose Springvale: january.. is a long time away
[18:10] Jamie Palisades: in my little 3d world country we call that the distinction between "nation of laws" and a "nation of personalities"
[18:10] Rose Springvale: for a democracy
[18:10] Rose Springvale: indeed jamie
[18:10] Rubaiyat Shatner: how about before the next election
[18:10] Jamie Palisades: You will heard more shortly Rose, smile
[18:10] Moon Adamant: please explain?
[18:10] Jamie Palisades: But I do not wish to take us off topic ... much
[18:11] Rubaiyat Shatner: I will want to be thrown out if I cannot show significant movement on such an important thing
[18:12] Jamie Palisades: best campaign platform I've heard yet :)
[18:12] Rose Springvale: smile
[18:12] Rose Springvale: looking for an applicable quote...
[18:12] Rubaiyat Shatner: I can repeat it quotably too if you like. : - )
[18:13] Jamie Palisades: ha ha
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn *giggles*
[18:13] Rose Springvale: smiles
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: anyway guys
[18:13] Moon Adamant: :)
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: this was great
[18:13] Rose Springvale: and abstains :)
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
[18:13] Rose Springvale: ah, no closing arguments?
[18:13] Rose Springvale: :)
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have nothing to argue about ;)
[18:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[18:13] Jamie Palisades: Personally, let me thank CSDF for this event, it is a *very* helpful focus for spme of the civic issues we facel
[18:13] Rose Springvale: i agree, thanks guys
[18:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Uh... Vote for us, We Make Things Happen? ;)
[18:14] Moon Adamant: thank you Jamie for attending and participating
[18:14] Rubaiyat Shatner: yeah I am sorry I could not be here the whole time
[18:14] Moon Adamant: and you all
[18:14] Rose Springvale: well, if you had male in there.. it might be a possiblitiy...
[18:14] Rose Springvale: :: ducks:::
[18:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Thanks for being as long as you could, Rubaiyat!
[18:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL ROse
[18:14] Moon Adamant: it's so much better to hol this as conversation than just haranguing you guys :)
[18:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: we'll get a naked Pat next time, Rose — promise!!
[18:14] Rose Springvale: Rub, it was nice to hear your positions
"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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Gwyneth Llewelyn
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July 2008 Elections CSDF Debate with the candidates (4/4)

Post by Gwyneth Llewelyn »

[18:14] Moon Adamant: lol rose
[18:14] Rose Springvale: oh wait
[18:14] Rose Springvale: no offense to pat
[18:15] Rose Springvale: but
[18:15] Rose Springvale: lol
[18:15] Rubaiyat Shatner: it was nice seeing everyone
[18:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: LOL
[18:15] Brian Livingston: Clothed...
[18:15] Rose Springvale: so that's it
[18:15] Jamie Palisades: hahaha
[18:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We'll get a budget for some male strippers, Rose.... there, how does THAT sound?
[18:15] Rose Springvale: ? :)
[18:15] Rose Springvale: ewwww
[18:15] Rose Springvale: lol
[18:15] Rose Springvale: if i want that, i'll vot Nucare!
[18:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, I want to reopen the cabaret sometime!
[18:15] Brian Livingston: Is that under entertainment or services in the budget?
[18:15] Moon Adamant: i am sure that was what the poster meant
[18:16] Rose Springvale: they give it for free!
[18:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn *snickers* @ Brian
[18:16] Brian Livingston: Or promotion?
[18:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In SL? promotion!
[18:16] Rose Springvale: i'd love to see the cabaret!
[18:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah, good old times... :)
[18:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: like the chats we had at the Trotsky Cafe ;)
[18:16] Moon Adamant: hmmm, are we still in the topic of male things?
[18:17] Brian Livingston: Yes
[18:17] Rose Springvale: did you have something to add moon?
[18:17] Brian Livingston: Wait, no
[18:17] Moon Adamant: ah, yes, trostky was great
[18:17] Rubaiyat Shatner: hey we are going to start a series on governance at trotskys
[18:17] Jamie Palisades: yeah let's go back t that! I have a pessonal interest!
[18:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: oooh make sure to post them on the events list, Rubaiyat!
[18:17] Rubaiyat Shatner: will do
[18:17] Rose Springvale: before my time :(
[18:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: alas, Rose, don't worry,
[18:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: if we get the Cabaret again, we'll invite you as lead role!
[18:18] Rose Springvale: ah
[18:18] Jamie Palisades: :)
[18:18] Rose Springvale: i always wanted to dance on broadway
[18:18] Moon Adamant: ehehe don't invite me
[18:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: :)))
[18:18] Neualtenburg Chicken Hat v2.0: Neualtenburg Animated Chicken Hat
[18:18] Neualtenburg Chicken Hat v2.0: Commands: cluck, crow, dance, mute, help
[18:18] Rose Springvale: and if you repeat that...
[18:18] Rose Springvale: lol
[18:18] Brian Livingston: cluck
[18:18] Rubaiyat Shatner: okay, I am actually out this time... ta
[18:18] Moon Adamant: only time i tried, i was taken by stage fright!
[18:18] Rose Springvale: cute brian
[18:18] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, poor Moon!!!
[18:18] Jamie Palisades: Rubaqui, do please post the schedule for that
"I'm not building a game. I'm building a new country."
  -- Philip "Linden" Rosedale, interview to Wired, 2004-05-08

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