CSDF Open Meeting on Confed and Dipl. Relations - Transcript

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Moon Adamant
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CSDF Open Meeting on Confed and Dipl. Relations - Transcript

Post by Moon Adamant »

Meeting on 2006-07-09
Those present:
Patroklus Murakami is in the chair.
Rubaiyat Shatner: I brought a cyberterrorist to talk diplomacy
Patroklus Murakami: hi rubaiyat
Chiao Chatnoir: Ah..ha. Not quite .. ah. Just a fly on the wall.
Rubaiyat Shatner: Hi Patroklus
Patroklus Murakami: hi chiao
Chiao Chatnoir: Hello.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Welcome as well, Chiao!
Rubaiyat Shatner: he promised not to blow anything up until after the meeting
Moon Adamant: hello Rubaiyat and Chiao :)
Patroklus Murakami: could everyone click the recorder (in the centre of the room) to indicate your consent to be recorded?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe thanks in advance then :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn has indicated consent to be recorded.
Chiao Chatnoir: Not one to blow anything up, personally.
Patroklus Murakami: we'll post a chatlog for those who can't make the meeting :)
Moon Adamant is completley clumsy at these early hours
Rubaiyat Shatner: that is fine by me, you may record me
Chiao Chatnoir: Ah, if there's a record. Just, so everyone knows, I was just interested in something that sounded legitimate and interesting. I have no affiliation here or anything.
Moon Adamant has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: did u click the recorder yesterday rubaiyat? at teh csdf meeting?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Chiao, you're most welcome!
Rubaiyat Shatner: that just sounds so strange
Rubaiyat Shatner has indicated consent to be recorded.
Patroklus Murakami: i have your'e comments on the chat log but wasn't sure if you'd agreed to that
Rubaiyat Shatner: I think so
Chiao Chatnoir: Do you mind. I'd like to know what the situation is, a brief recap, if you'd be so kind.
Patroklus Murakami: k, let's deal with that outside the meeting rubaiyat :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, Chiao ? at least you know that Neufreistadt has been a self-governed sim since October 2004?
Patroklus Murakami: for chiao's benefit... and to set the scene
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I mean, how far back should we go :)
Patroklus Murakami: go on gwyn
Chiao Chatnoir: I do now. I know nothing of this area beyond what was on the event schedule.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh! Ok...
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, here in Neufreistadt we have to deal with the major problems that afflict long-term projects in SL:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - people's commitment fades, ie. people go away, turn to more interesting projects, etc
Gwyneth Llewelyn: - organisation is usually provided by a "strong leader" and you have the succession problem:
Gwyneth Llewelyn: what to do when the Dear Leader goes away?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Most groups split up at this phase, ie. when the "leader" goes away, taking land & money& buildings with them :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Our proposal back in October 2004 or thereabouts: institute self-government
Gwyneth Llewelyn: where "citizens" (stakeholders in the group ? in our case, all own land) vote for a government, for a period of time
Gwyneth Llewelyn: one term is currently 6 months
Chiao Chatnoir: This was a proposal to whom? The Lindens? Or..
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh no ?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: proposal to the interested residents :)
Chiao Chatnoir: Oh, I see now. So as to avoid people who would run off with their buildings and the such. I understand. Continue.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: The citizens created a constitution, a code of law
Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes
Gwyneth Llewelyn: well, and briefly, I think we have managed to succeed somehow.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: This was started in October 2004,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we're still around,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: from the original group,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: only one person remains :)
Moon Adamant: you :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the project is as growing as ever ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, lol
Gwyneth Llewelyn is the stubborn one
Chiao Chatnoir: And excuse me, but what is the Project?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well, just to implement this model in SL, really
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *parts of SL... hehe
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Meaning: this sim ;)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: 1 out of 2866 ;)
Chiao Chatnoir: Okay, I wasn't sure if there was a bigger thing. But, alright. I'm all caught up, haha. Don't mind me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... but growing ;)
Patroklus Murakami: so we have regular elections for our legislature - the Representative Asembly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: we're currently during the two-week campaign before the elections,
Patroklus Murakami: and today's meeting is part of the election campaign
Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now and lets the speaker speak :)
Chiao Chatnoir: Ah, if you don't mind, what is Neufreistadt?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: http://neufreistadt.info ;)
Chiao Chatnoir: Thank you.
Patroklus Murakami: we're presenting the ideas of our faction - the Citizens' Social Democratic Faction - on whether we should become a Confederation and on Diplomatic Relations
Moon Adamant: Neufreistadt is both this sim and the government that rules it
Patroklus Murakami smiles at Gwyn
Patroklus Murakami: so shall we begin?
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods* please do!
Patroklus Murakami: i have some notes i prepared
Moon Adamant: please Pat :)
Patroklus Murakami: but feel free to butt in
Chiao Chatnoir: Please do, thanks for indulging me.
Patroklus Murakami: I?d like to start by explaining why these two items in our programme are linked and how they interrelate.
Patroklus Murakami: They are about the way we view ourselves as a self-governing democratic community in Second Life, and how we see ourselves developing.
Patroklus Murakami: We're on the verge of expanding to our second sim. It?s a momentous time. The way we choose to go forward will have important consequences for the development of the project.
Patroklus Murakami: Our proposal is that we go forward as one Republic rather than develop a federal structure.
Patroklus Murakami: We should remain a Republic because the government structures we have do scale well, in fact they work better the larger we get.
Patroklus Murakami: Now we need to have a large proportion of our 38 citizens working as members of the RA, SC and Guild and the nascent civil service.
Moon Adamant nods at Pat
Patroklus Murakami: With two, or three (or more!) sims and 50, 100, 500 citizens we will need a smaller proportion to run the government so less bureaucracy, not more.
Patroklus Murakami: But there is a role for local representation. It?s important that Colonia Nova (and future additions to the family) have their own voice in the legislature.
Patroklus Murakami: Our proposal is for each new sim to have it?s own elected member but as part of a single Representative Assembly. That way we cater for local representation without creating unnecessary complication.
Patroklus Murakami: A bicameral legislature, and a federal system makes some kind of sense for a nation of 250 million :). It makes no sense for a micronation of 40! (or approximately 200 in 5 sims).
Patroklus Murakami: shall we pause to discuss confederation/republic before moving on to foreign relations?
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Translations for the benefit of Chiao: RA = representative assembly. Factions are elected according to all citizen's preferences; individual seats are assigned to each faction (ie individuals are not elected directly)
Patroklus Murakami: ty gwyn :) sorry chiao, translations necessary!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: SC = Scientific Council, it provides the role of the judicial system and constitutional overview of emitted laws. It's a meritrocacy currently (not elected)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Guild = the artisanal branch. Somehow mixes up the role of partially executive, partially civil service, partially Trade Union
Moon Adamant: and btw, Colonia Nova: new sim project
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Purpose today: how will expansion go, ie. how will the 1-sim-government become a N-sim government :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat, excellent arguments so far!! I totally agree that as we grow, the government & bureaucracy should become smaller :D
Moon Adamant: ah, we must tell Chiao also that we are proposing a Cabinet to repalce Guild and hold teh executive power clearly
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I had never thought about it, but you're so right!
Moon Adamant: and yes, Pat :)
Patroklus Murakami: one of the things that struck me when i arrived here was how many ppl are involved in gov or running the community - too many!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I totally agree!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... and still we get quorum problems often :P
Patroklus Murakami: the advantage of rep democracy is that you *don't* need everyone to be involved in politics
Patroklus Murakami: but that they're views are represented
Patroklus Murakami: and their representatives can be replaced
Gwyneth Llewelyn *nods*
Moon Adamant: right now 1/3 of teh population is involved directly into government
Patroklus Murakami: so expansion allows us to lever that advantage
Patroklus Murakami: we still get rep govnt
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and even "local authorities".
Patroklus Murakami: but we free up ppl for other projects in civil society
Gwyneth Llewelyn: mm hmm
Patroklus Murakami: that may interest them more
Moon Adamant: exactly Pat
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Totally agree
Patroklus Murakami: and, as you point out, we have enought trouble getting five ppl to meet for Representative Assembly meetings
Moon Adamant: we also propose a model for Civil Society to implement these projects
Moon Adamant: and inded, Pat and Gwyn
Patroklus Murakami: not surprising, 5 out of 38 is a high proportion of politicians!
Patroklus Murakami: but i think the proposal for a federation is wrong for several other reasons
Gwyneth Llewelyn: And remember the other branches :)
Patroklus Murakami: it's unnecessary even in the terms that it has been proposed
Patroklus Murakami: i think that claude mentioned a social studies statistic in defence of the idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Really?
Patroklus Murakami: that when you get a group grow beyond 30 or so, it should subdivide
Moon Adamant: hello Aliasi :)
Patroklus Murakami: the idea is from 'the tipping point'
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi, welcome!
Moon Adamant: do join us :)
Gwyneth Llewelyn: ah yes Pat,
Patroklus Murakami: hi aliasi, come on it
Aliasi Stonebender: hai, folks. and before anyone asks, yes, you can friggin' record me.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: you're right. Sorry. My poor brain is just half-awake.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: haha Aliasi!
Patroklus Murakami: haha, u beat me to it
Patroklus Murakami: we're discussing the conferation idea, and what's wrong with it! and why we need to remain a republic
Patroklus Murakami: it's true that communities get too large and unwieldy after a time
Patroklus Murakami: the idea is presented in 'the tipping point' in the example of several types of community
Patroklus Murakami: self-organising ones and corporations
Patroklus Murakami: but the figure isn't 30!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: There seems to be the somehow skewed idea that *every* group of 35 people need to be totally self-sufficient and self-organised, independently of each other. The 'tipping point' paradigm does not exactly promote that, just that 'local management' at the
Patroklus Murakami: it's 150 or so!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: level of 35 people is a good idea
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Pat: yes, Monkeysphere :)
Patroklus Murakami: beyond that it's difficult for everyone to know everyone else
Patroklus Murakami: until that point subdivision makes no sense
Gwyneth Llewelyn: I agree, 150 people would be 5 sims,
Patroklus Murakami: it just adds an additional layer of bureucracy for no addtional benefit
Gwyneth Llewelyn: or tehreabouts.
Patroklus Murakami: we have a proposal to allow for local representation
Patroklus Murakami: without the need for an additional legislative chamber
Patroklus Murakami shuts up so others can speak!
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Don't! You were doing great ;)
Patroklus Murakami: (I was on a roll)
Patroklus Murakami: but we need objections! let's debate
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, objections, objections...
Moon Adamant: we'd like to point out that there are civil service functions associated with the RA... there is an archivist, you need to duplicate that function as well - and eventually other fuinctions as the system expands
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Some people on differently-themed sims
Gwyneth Llewelyn: (which the new sim will certainly be)
Patroklus Murakami's cmorning offee has kicked in
Patroklus Murakami: *morning
Gwyneth Llewelyn: are afraid that the "current" government, since the "seat of government" is in Neufreistadt
Aliasi Stonebender: Hm. Well, I do think you need to clearly seperate the idea of NFS adding new sims, such as in the case of CN, and some other government project wishing to join with us in some way.
Moon Adamant smiles at Pat
Gwyneth Llewelyn: might be too prone to look into their "own" problems first,
Gwyneth Llewelyn: and forget about the differently-themed aspects of others.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aliasi: sure, that should come up in a minute. Pat broke it up in two parts.
Patroklus Murakami: i think that's a legitimate concern gwyn. but what would those interests be?
Chiao Chatnoir: If you don't mind my jumping in here, is another established Sim looking to join with yours? If so, I'd be for A confederacy over a republic.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: N, Chiao.
Gwyneth Llewelyn: *No
Moon Adamant: no Chiao
Patroklus Murakami: i'm not aware of any
Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's just a *possibility*... but none so far.
Aliasi Stonebender: No more than theoretical talk.
Chiao Chatnoir: Ah, I see.
Aliasi Stonebender: But I'd rather anticipate it.,
Patroklus Murakami: as far as i know there are *no* other democratic sims, yet
Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Pat, let's give a concrete example.
Moon Adamant: well, yes Pat lol
...
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