Transcript of General Meeting of the CSDF, 1/5

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[8:15] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: let em tp Gwyn in[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: here she is [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: hi gwyn [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ouch... and sorry I'm late!!![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles at Gwyn[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:15] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: No problem![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:16] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Oh, this is a nice place![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Thanks![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: I made one big mistake.. built on an angle. alignment can be a problem.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:16] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ah, it makes for more interesting architecture [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: when you have say 2 hours free rotate it to world axis and align stuff[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: and then rotate it back[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: I will do that![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: nothing matches in my main home - deconstructionist style![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: aaah[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol Pat[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: walls all aover teh place[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:17] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Next meeting would be at your place, then, Pat![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol, sure![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: hmmmm[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn is opening mail program...[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ... unless you have it all on notecards?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i wanted to have made an agenda.... [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: If you have any suggestions for portraits.. people who contributed to human emancipation in some way.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh, good idea Gwyn, let me do that too[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: we have two items from last time i think?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:19] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:19] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yup[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:19] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: And I wrote that long thing. I think Moon was right about the Guild aspect. We should discuss that and other program issues.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:19] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: points 4 and 5 were juslt lightly abridged[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:19] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Aye, yes[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: ok, so where d you prefer to start ?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: since we don't have a regular agenda[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: easy points first?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: like logo approval?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, easy point first![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Sounds good.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: and lenghty discussions after? .)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:20] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol, ok[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i like the logo [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: ok[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: I do too.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe it's also fine for me, yes![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: hurrah![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: well, do you guys approve the logo in its two versions - simple - accrostic - and complete - full designation?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: We already have a complaint from the DPU regarding the logo.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh really? why's that?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Claude says that now his party is the one with the worst logo [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: he wants a nicer one [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: too bad?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ... but all logo designers are on different parties [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: he shd commission moon to create one [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: that is an easy issue to take care of [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Moon is now "the enemy" [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle giggles[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh my[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe just joking [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:22] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: he did, actually, Pat, ask me if i coudl reccomend him someone to make him a new logo[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Anyway, I approve both logos easily, hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Would they want it to get out that there logo was designed by a social democrat?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Indeed, jon.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: and i did - dunno if DPU hired any after all[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: that would be very bad for their upcoming elections [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i approve both versions[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, I approve[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: btw, i'd like to ask someone to record the log, if you all agree[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Anyway — as a side note, since we don't have an agenda — Patroklus, you are now the last elegible member of the SDF[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:23] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: thanks [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn agrees beeing logged.[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: OMG really? what happened to eugene[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh, that is an easy point as well, lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i agree to being logged and i'll try to save a copy [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, I agree too[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Eugene told me he really doesn't have much time free for SL (only a few minutes every week or so)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: thanks Pat it's just my clipboard can't handle long logs[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: And he delegates his "leadership" of the SDF in N'burg[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: to either you or Cid[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:24] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Since Cid apparently is MiA[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: or so he told Claude (I think)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: aah, the power![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: You're the last one, Patroklus![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: mwuhahaha[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ah, Parties of One are always nice [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: well, i can't say that's entirely unexpected[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: what i thought i might do[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: But the meetings in parties of one never end..[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: LOL Jon[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: is issue an appeal for members[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: very right [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: there may be sdf voters[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: btw[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes... Pelanor suggested creating alts [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: who would like us to take our RA seats[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: have you seen what Pelanor has posted in forum regarding this matter?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: no alts![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: not on[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: not doing that[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i think you're right there, mind you[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i'd rather resign from sdf and leave teh seats vacant[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: dunno Pat[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: and i may do that anyway[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: maybe you could call for formal dissolution of SDF then?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i know this doesn't solve teh seats question... but then current situatione doesn't either[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, "the sdf is dead, long live the csdf"[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: that cd be my forum post![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:27] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: that does roll in the tongue [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: I would like that, as a *political* maneuver, of course, but...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ... I think it's now your personal choice, Patroklus[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: And we shouldn't influence you![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: k[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:28] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: no, we shouldn't[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Just make sure you think about it,[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol gwyn[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: then inform the SC of your willingness (or not) to serve[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: and later Claude[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: sure thing[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok Moonie — next item? [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:29] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i think we should now work over the two docs we have[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: Pat's charter and Jon's proposal for programme[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i'm cool with that[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: this way we would be in point 4...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well, I would not call it a complete proposal.. I have serval others I am working on.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:30] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: we can also go for point 5[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: which maybe be faster at the moment - and that is list[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: what do you say?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok, let me see if I find point 5 [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: point 5 is list to present for upcoming election[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: 5. Lists ?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, list for election[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:31] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: am not sure if this will be the right moment for it[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well, the list, at this point, is easy [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Since one needs 3 ellegible members[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: and we are 4, and I'm not ellegible[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, lol - too easy - that's my issue [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: That means the list is you three guys [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Any, hmm, complains? [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol, this is being faster than i thought![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:32] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles and nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: ok, that's settled! unless one of us doesn't want to serve[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh, of course we want to serve lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Indeed.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: but i agree that Gwyn has stablished a neew record for setting lists down, lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Actually I'd like to reform the RA first, but wont happen! [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:33] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: How very uncommon on me.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: <--- it's the new hair [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: jon, that can be part of our programme[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: But Jon — that might be part of the programme, though![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: I mean reforming the RA [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i think we're all bubbling here with radical reforms [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok, so, let's move to 4 then?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: ah[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: just one thing[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:34] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: how shall i write teh list down? alphabetical order?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Order by UUID [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: LOL[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: LOL[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: come on...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Alphabetical is fine...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:35] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Fine with me.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Okay.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: so it's Jon Seattle, Moon Adamant, Patroklus Murakami[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Although we can also agree on "tactical" voting on the list — but that should probably be announced during the campaign.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Sounds good [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, it's fine. i didn't understand teh system before. we rank at voting time, yes?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, pat.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i think we do[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: on the charter...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:36] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: and i do wonder about tactical voting[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: No, I mean just that we can agree on a ranking among ourselves,[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i find the discussion on the forum to be useful. shall we continue to develop it that way?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: and present that to potential future members of the CSDF that might join before the elections[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Oh, I do agree, Pat.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: I like that.. but some of my ideas may be half formed.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:37] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn now opens the forums as well![/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:38] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: As long as you dont mind telling me when I head off in a wrong direction![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:38] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: oh, i do agree Pat - but good also to discuss it here, because i think it is a bit faster maybe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:38] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:38] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: let me open the form as well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: *forum[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok, I haven't gotten much time to post there...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: (I was busy posting elsewhere) *blushes*[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: tsk tsk [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:39] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: But some things attracted my attention, minor ones.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: thanks for your commments moon. i havent' had time to incorporate themm yet, but will do [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: First, we should add to the "founding documents"[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: the N'burg Constitution, and Code of Laws[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: ah, sure![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: agreed[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Good [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: *blushes*[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Then hmm[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:40] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: There is a clarification needed in terms of what the Secretary-General is (*waves* at Moon)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: We cannot use the expression "Faction leader"[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol, i do agree[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: since according to the N'burg Constitution[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: the faction leader is not "elected" by the party members in a general meeting[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: but by the ranking of factions during the election.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:41] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: hmmmmm[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: So... what we have here, is a (not uncommon) situation: you have the "bench leader" (I hope that makes sense to you guys)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: aah, my bad! i knew we needed a faction leader for nburg purposes and thought we could elect our own[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ie. the person at the RA that leads the faction[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i dare say that that is a bit intrusional as regards something in which the parties should be self-determinant, no?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: And then we have the so-called "party leader", who might be — or not — the faction leader as well[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Hmm[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well, the Constitution tells how parties are organised.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Of course we do not have the ranking until after the election[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i can change that. we'll need to define the duties and responsibilties of the S-G[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Indeed, patroklus.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:42] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: but it shouldn't, right?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well Moon, *some* things have to be defined on the Constitution! [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i mean, WHY does it define that?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: no[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: We can only suggest that an amendment should be done on that, but only after we get elected *sniggers*[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: a party is a free-association of individuals[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Why?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:43] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Because it provides a very simple mechanism for determining who the leader is [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: We could define sec gen and our primary organizer, not necessarily top vote getter.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, we can.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: the thing is - call it bench leader lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, the two posts could be separate. might be good to divide up the work a little[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: or spokesman[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, bench Leader would be a better name.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Spokesperson[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:44] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes, if you want to go PC [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: I always go that way hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: sec-genn=bench leader or faction leader=bench leader?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ... although I'm a Mac user[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok, bad pun.... sorry![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami is a bit dim[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: anyway[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: we can live with that[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: faction leader (as defined by the constitution)=bench leader[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:45] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: if we define then clearly what is SG and bench leader functions[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: SG= what WE define as being the "party leader"[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: brb.. continue I will catch up[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: that's the idea, Moon.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: i'd see the sec-gen as having an internal party focus and an external pr role[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:46] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: The uh "functions" of the "faction leader" are not really defined.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: agrees agenda for meetings. represents teh faction to the electorate[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Yes, Pat, whereas the "bench leader" only coordinates work at the RA meetings, and nothing else.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: factionleader wd be more RA focuseesd[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: *focussed[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Totally so [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i think that is a good proposal Pat[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Back. [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i agree with that[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: and wb Jon[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: makes for a nice division of labour[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: wb jon[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:47] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle nods in agreement[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:48] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i like that too because[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:48] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: personally speaking[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:48] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i see SecGen role as the person in service of all teh party[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:48] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Makes sense.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:48] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Indeed, the current ideas on the Constitution are rather weird.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: which is why i insisted on SecGen title more than 'President' say[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn ducks before she's shot for blaspheming.[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: you don't say, Gwyn? [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: really?[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: i am shocked [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: OMG and this from the 'defender of the constitution'![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:49] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Oh, isn't the Constitution the Holy Book, and Ulrika God's Appointed Prophet? [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: u r her terrestrial representative on earth[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: And I just swore to uphold and defend the Constitution, not to *like* it [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: isn't that the way it works [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: No, I think that's Ulrika's job.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle[/b:1vyld8nt]: Well, we will work on transforming it.[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: yes Jon![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: On the other hand, I haven't consulted God in the matter [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:50] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: thank Goddess for that![/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: hehe[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: God is more worried these days about smiting in forums [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Ok, next item I had...[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: ‘from each according to their ability, to each according to their needs’[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: (trying to get back on track, hehe)[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami rolls up his sleeves[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkSlateBlue:1vyld8nt][i:1vyld8nt]Jon Seattle nods[/i:1vyld8nt][/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Patroklus Murakami[/b:1vyld8nt]: go on[/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:51] [color=DarkGreen:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:1vyld8nt]: Go for it, Pat — defend it [/color:1vyld8nt]
[8:52] [color=Sienna:1vyld8nt][b:1vyld8nt]Moon Adamant[/b:1vyld8nt]: lol[/color:1vyld8nt]

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[8:52] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Gwyn, you saw my comments on it. But I have no problem with us experimenting with it.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:52] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn waits.[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[8:52] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes, I saw them [/color:n86mee37]
[8:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: well..[/color:n86mee37]
[8:52] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i agree that there's a problem with teh idea if it were our only principle[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Then the scope of it should be applied.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I mean, defined.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: we need to accept that there' a role for wage labour and private enterprise within a capitalist economy[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Oh, sure.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: by saying we want to experiment with the idea[/color:n86mee37]
[8:53] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: or else we won't get a single vote — lol[/color:n86mee37]
[8:54] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: well, yes[/color:n86mee37]
[8:54] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i was trying to avoid being straight jacketed by it[/color:n86mee37]
[8:54] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i'm happy to think about how we might make clearer[/color:n86mee37]
[8:54] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: the limitations and scope[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i do agree and insist that we do not get stuck into passé hmmm ideological conventions[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Also hmm[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: "who" defines the abilities, "who" defines the needs.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: That's always the problem with that phrase.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Specially when the answer is "the people"[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: [/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[8:55] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Very good point. The phrase assumes that there is a trans-personal point of view to define these things.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: well, i think a proposal like Jon has made is actually a step in that direction[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: well, in a socialist system that could be the elected representatives of the ppl[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I agree, Moon[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: But, I also would like our faction to be able to accomidate a range of views on the left.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: *wouild[/color:n86mee37]
[8:56] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: It applies mostly to scarce resources that are somehow "property of all" (in our case: the public commons, the so-called "city land")[/color:n86mee37]
[8:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: do u think it's too narrow? and too far left? remember we need a sharp point of difference with the liberals and libertarians of sl[/color:n86mee37]
[8:57] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: if we involve the citizens more in governing work,[/color:n86mee37]
[8:57] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: then those common scarce resources can be shared with the approval of a larger base[/color:n86mee37]
[8:57] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: So, I would agree that, in the sense that there will be "public land", and shared resources, no matter how the "private land" is allocated... the public land should have an underlying principle of "sharing"[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i think also[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I agree Moon[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: that we should make a statement here about[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods and agrees[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: well' governement action[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: what IS governement for us?[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: forr me, it's not just abouut sharing and having shared public spaces[/color:n86mee37]
[8:58] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: see? i have this feeling that we are indeed starting from scratch[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes [/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and that we have to work all these definitions up[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Can you elaborate, Pat?[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: it's about enabling talented ppl to use the commons to create works that all can enjoy[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I would define commons a little more widely.. not just public land but how create public views and sounds, etc.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: aaah ok Pat![/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I like that as a principle![/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: and express thmselves that way[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes Jon[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I agree as well.[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: no, Pat - i agree. Government should have a broader action. This would be just the *economic* role of Government[/color:n86mee37]
[8:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I like that too.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and i do agree![/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: This comes in line with our meeting last week: as a matter of principle, our "social" bit should be promoting arts, culture, education[/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: and for those, I totally agree that it'll be the Government's job[/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle cheers Gwyn[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: to provide "resources" (land, prims, L$) for those[/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: yup[/color:n86mee37]
[9:00] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: and then, yes, giving fair and equal opportunities for those wishing to use them.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:01] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: What I'm *trying* to avoid is that this might be interpreted as too extreme left — ie, *all* resources are public.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:01] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmmm[/color:n86mee37]
[9:01] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i am sure it can be phrased inquivocally[/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Good [/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: something like[/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i understand your concern, my intent in putting it fwd was to be a little provocative [/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Oh, that's quite all right, Pat [/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i can attenuate what's there on teh basis of our discussions[/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: My purpose is just to define boundaries.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:02] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: and clarify what i/we meant[/color:n86mee37]
[9:03] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: 'While we defend the right to individual property, we feel that common resources can and should be used in a public manner, etc'[/color:n86mee37]
[9:03] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Can I quote Jon? " would include something about exploitation of the commons. People will often try to exploit common resources if they can get away without paying the costs."[/color:n86mee37]
[9:03] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Sure![/color:n86mee37]
[9:03] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I read that bit, and I found that to fit quite well[/color:n86mee37]
[9:03] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i am sure that you Pat, can rewrite my phrase much better [/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and i agree Gwyn[/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: the tragedy of teh commons *used * to apply to SL (in v1.2?) How does it apply now?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Well, you started well, Moon, and we can also include that on the Government's roles:[/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ah yes, Pat[/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle has to check the version number[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:04] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Well, there is a bit of abuse even in N'burg, although the reverse happened: Ulrika (a private individual) deleting items that were regarded as public property, and not private one.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:05] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:05] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:05] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: So in a sense, the concept of "public land" was abused, or exploited[/color:n86mee37]
[9:05] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: and one of the Government's job should be to avoid that happening ever again.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:05] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I'd add that as one of the roles of Government:[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: something like, hmm...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: yes, one danger of teh current system is that public resources could be used for the vanity projects of the elite[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: to enforce equal access to public, shared resources[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: to oversee and prevent exploitation of the same[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: the fact that more common abuse doesn't happen is because NA is a regulated sim, and is well cared off - i am thinking stuff like people sneaking to build over land that doesn't have an auto-return, etc[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: not saying that's happened before [/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol Pat[/color:n86mee37]
[9:06] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: So the tragedy of C here, applies to things that we build together.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Totally so, Patroklus & Jon... so, to prevent individuals to explore "common projects"[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: but also Pat, in your own definition, 'environment'[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: We can add all those as "duties of Government"[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: .[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: as stands for visual and audio environment[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ah yes, I agree.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: is also a common resource[/color:n86mee37]
[9:07] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: It is![/color:n86mee37]
[9:08] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: actually, this is a handy definition of environment[/color:n86mee37]
[9:08] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: old SDF had an environmentalist article in its manifesto... i always wondered what that meant[/color:n86mee37]
[9:08] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i thought they meant 'trees' [/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Oops[/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I think Moon crashed?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: can you read this?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ah you're back[/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: we are edging close to something in the old sdf manifesto about 'ensuring high quality public spaces' etc but i think that's ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes, i can [/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ah ok, i thought i had crashed for a moment [/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: And I don't dislike the ideas on the old SDF manifesto, actually [/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle laughs.. "protect virtual trees!"[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:09] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Most of them are not silly![/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami nods in agreement with Gwyn[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmmmm i think we can do better[/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I think we will.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: specially in the way of making our statements clearer[/color:n86mee37]
[9:10] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and more defined[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: where i think we can imporve is in being a truly democratic organisation, and demonstrating that in how we do what we do[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Let me read further (although I think these are the major issues anyway)[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: And totally so, btw[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: that is part of the manifesto, right?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:11] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: yes Pat - i do agree![/color:n86mee37]
[9:12] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Well, it follows...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:12] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: I was only wondering if we should take Pat's words and reinforce them on the manifesto as well.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:12] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: but i also think that we must define things clearly[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I also agree with Pat, good idea Gwyn.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: ie. "The CSDF believes in true democracy, and is organised democratically"[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: oh yes![/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: We need to say we are and how we are different.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Sounds a bit presumptuous [/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: brb[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: absolutely![/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i mean[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmm[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: like this:[/color:n86mee37]
[9:13] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ' we believe that government processes must be demopcratic and transparent[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: " and we begin by applying our beliefs to ourselves in our self-organization"[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: ok, not excluding any organisations wishing to participate actively in N'burg...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: back[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: what about that?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: ok ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: andwb Pat [/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: much better, Moon — I second that![/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: let me go get a cup of water, brb[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I like moon's paragraph[/color:n86mee37]
[9:14] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: So do I![/color:n86mee37]
[9:15] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: yup. sounds good to me too[/color:n86mee37]
[9:15] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: back [/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Did Gwyn crash?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami prods gwyn[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmmm[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn is sending some more N'burg's future names votes to the official database hehe[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: sorry.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: np[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: No problem[/color:n86mee37]
[9:16] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: btw, when we do we learn our new name?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: btw, when are we getting those results? next RA meeting?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle listens[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami waits[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes, Sunday.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: sorry[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ah, thanks .)[/color:n86mee37]
[9:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: [/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Well or later today... I'm always confused[/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: It's hard to keep track of 4 different timezones with their nagging persistence of starting a "day" on a different time [/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: anyway, lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: hehe, true![/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: more discussion on charter[/color:n86mee37]
[9:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I think moon and I are in almost the same time zones, on different sides of the planet.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:19] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:19] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol, that's because i am a night bird [/color:n86mee37]
[9:19] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: have you guys read my thing about quorum?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:19] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: yes, agree totally[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Seems good.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: Gwyn?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: means we currently need three members to hold a meeting. seems ok to me[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and what formula would you think best?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Quorum is ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: And I'm all for simple majority[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: It's pretty clearly defined[/color:n86mee37]
[9:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Some day I may say more about quaker-style concensus process.. but not today.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: [/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ok [/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: drat gwyn[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Moon?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: not simple majority[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: sounds like an interesting conversation, but yes, for later[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: simple majority is of the present members[/color:n86mee37]
[9:21] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i prefer 50% plus 1[/color:n86mee37]
[9:22] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: For the quorum, absolute majority[/color:n86mee37]
[9:22] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: For voting, simple majority.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:22] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Did I get it right this time??[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: absolute majority = 50% plus one?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: so for quorum... 50% of all members + 1?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes, Pat.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: But 50% + 1 of *all* members[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Whereas for voting, it's 50% + 1 of members present.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and for votings, simple majority from all members present?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: sorry, not familar with term. yes, of all members. i'm happy with gwyn's proposal[/color:n86mee37]
[9:24] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: simple majority is always "from all members present" [/color:n86mee37]
[9:24] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Wikipedia to the rescue ;9[/color:n86mee37]
[9:24] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:24] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: about chrter revisions?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Wikippedia has become the universal encylopedia of humanity..[/color:n86mee37]
[9:25] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: You mean how many members for that?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:25] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: For charter revisions?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: simple majority at a GM?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:25] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i do want to have a stablished process for charter revisions, so we don't get ' but i am the only person that understands this document fully' thingies in the future[/color:n86mee37]
[9:26] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: True![/color:n86mee37]
[9:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: aah, good point moon[/color:n86mee37]
[9:26] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: How about more than majority for that?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:26] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i don't have a clear way to do it[/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: but i think it should be stated without doubts that charter CAN and should be revised[/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: but can i gently point out that there's only four of us. in a community of 30. we shouldn't need too many detailed rules of procedure for our faction[/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ah Pat[/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Things can get complicated quickly [/color:n86mee37]
[9:27] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: but you see, we can grow and become a lot of us [/color:n86mee37]
[9:28] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: mm hmm[/color:n86mee37]
[9:28] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: SDF grew from 6 or 7 people to 38 in a week... hehe[/color:n86mee37]
[9:28] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: yes lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:28] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: We do hope that. Perhaps have rules that come in to use only when we grow.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: wow. well, when u put it like that... agree we shd get it right! [/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Well, to make a parallel to the N'burg Constitution, we could have Charter revisions by an absolute majority of 2/3 + 1[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: (meaning: of *all* members)[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i'd say that Charter can be revised upon calling of any memebr right now, and approved for simple majority[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i'm just a littel concerned that we have spent a lot of time on the charter, but have yet to consider our programme for the elections[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn *shrugs*[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami is impatient [/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Pat — you're right, let's table that[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: And discuss the programme instead.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Issue for the next GM: how to revise the Charter [/color:n86mee37]
[9:29] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and in furture, if needs be, we can alter that - but we must make it clear now that there is a process[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: kk, i agree[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: yes, I agree...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I agree.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: i'll draft options for the forum discussion[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: On to program issues?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: yes, onwards and upwards[/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Aye [/color:n86mee37]
[9:30] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Moon Adamant will become very radical from now on [/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: kewl[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Here are two categories: constitutional changes, and then initiatives.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ok.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I think we need to discuss both.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: yes, pretty much so[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: yes, do go on[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: namely, the discussion about the Executive Branch[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: But perhaps we can just do some of the constitutional issues this meeting.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: that will be the major change[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Ok Jon[/color:n86mee37]
[9:31] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: and i'd like also to bring about the representativity issue[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: We still have another weekend, and then it's campaigning time...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: aaah yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: bugger, that's soon![/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I have some comments about the RA's responsibilities. what I see as a major problem.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: perhaps that first, Moon — it might be simpler?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmm, ok, if you agree[/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle nods "I will try to post more ideas in a forum."[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Oh Glorious Leader — which one should we tackle first? [/color:n86mee37]
[9:32] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i should be called instead teh Guardian Angel of Charter[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: [/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: "lol" is not an item on the agenda [/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ok[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: [/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: "ok" isn't one, either.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: And we need, need, need to talk about the Guild -- but I think that is what Moon is getting at.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: i can begin by that[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Yes — Guild — Executive branch[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: ok, Guild and Executive power[/color:n86mee37]
[9:33] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: Can I start with RA[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: go on jon[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: we need a clearly defined executive brnach[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: Wait...[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:n86mee37]: What first?!?[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: sorry, i am slow typist![/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkOliveGreen:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Patroklus Murakami[/b:n86mee37]: aaargh![/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: lol, Jon - do go on[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: One of my big problems with the RA as it now stands is that it is both cabinet and legistature[/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkGreen:n86mee37][i:n86mee37]Gwyneth Llewelyn is utterly confused[/i:n86mee37][/color:n86mee37]
[9:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: They deal with day to day issues.[/color:n86mee37]
[9:35] [color=Sienna:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Moon Adamant[/b:n86mee37]: hmmm yes[/color:n86mee37]
[9:35] [color=DarkSlateBlue:n86mee37][b:n86mee37]Jon Seattle[/b:n86mee37]: I would like us to be able to split those.[/color:n86mee37]

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, although the original idea was to separate the "executive powers" among the three branches.
[9:35] Moon Adamant: which brings another issue: what is then Guild for?
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That was the original intent.
[9:35] Jon Seattle: Have a legislative process that is more about citizien particpation and planning.
[9:35] Moon Adamant: but that Gwyn
[9:35] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now: Guild is building authority, finance, and worker's collective, as well as Chamber of Commerce, Treasury, and State bank, and...
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... if I think a bit, I'll add another hundred functions
[9:36] Moon Adamant: would only increase the ammount of bureaucratic processe - in teh shape of communications from one branch to another
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah yes, overseeing and supervising authority, deeds, notary...
[9:36] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In one word: Guild is the Government Bureaucracy
[9:36] Moon Adamant: but Gwyn
[9:36] Jon Seattle: Way too much.
[9:36] Moon Adamant: follow my reasoninghere
[9:37] Jon Seattle listens
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: At one point in time, I even suggested at one RA meeting that the civil service should be run by the Guild...
[9:37] Moon Adamant: we know that Guild is a corporative entity
[9:37] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (since we DO have now 3 civil servants ... one to be appointed)
[9:37] Moon Adamant: the so called worker's collective
[9:37] Moon Adamant: and it has a huge ammount of power...
[9:38] Moon Adamant: now let's imagine that i am a person who can't put one prim on top of another... and have no other abilities whatsoever
[9:38] Moon Adamant: i am from ever debarred from the Guild
[9:38] Moon Adamant: barrd*
[9:38] Moon Adamant: and for ever*
[9:38] Moon Adamant: right?
[9:38] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not right now... you'd still be a Guild member, just never advance beyond Apprenticeship
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami: i thoght the guild had open membership?
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: They do, yes.
[9:39] Jon Seattle thinks every time she puts two prims together she creates worlds of meaning..
[9:39] Moon Adamant: but what if i don't even want to become Apprentice?
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But advancement inside the Guild is up to the masters.
[9:39] Patroklus Murakami smiles
[9:39] Moon Adamant: what if i don't like Corporative thingies?
[9:39] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I don't follow you, Moon
[9:39] Moon Adamant: ah, that's another issue
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: then don't join the guild
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You mean, if you want to create your "own" Guild instead of the "official" Guild, and wish it to have some authority as well?
[9:40] Moon Adamant: i mean that a citizen CAN want to participate in government and not like to be in a corporative thing
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Freedom of association is embodied in the founding documents,
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: i'm not sure what yoiu're getting at moon.
[9:40] Jon Seattle: I actually asked to be included in the Guild, and was turned down. Nicely, though.
[9:40] Patroklus Murakami: brb
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and *any* citizen can submit bills to the RA.
[9:40] Gwyneth Llewelyn: You were turned down, Jon?!
[9:40] Moon Adamant: but Gwyn
[9:40] Jon Seattle: I was.
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn:
[9:41] Jon Seattle: Very nicely.. was told things are in too much a state of flux right now.
[9:41] Jon Seattle: they said: Wait until we figure this out.
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Hmm, that seems unfair.
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok...
[9:41] Moon Adamant: what i mean is
[9:41] Moon Adamant: Gwyn
[9:41] Gwyneth Llewelyn is here.
[9:42] Moon Adamant: everyone can propose a bill to RA
[9:42] Moon Adamant: BUT
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: yes, they can
[9:42] Moon Adamant: are RA powers same as Guild's?
[9:42] Moon Adamant: what i mean is
[9:42] Moon Adamant: if we have a Cabinet
[9:42] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Not at all, they're not the same...
[9:42] Moon Adamant: a citizen can be elected for Cabinet
[9:43] Moon Adamant: and right now
[9:43] Moon Adamant: i am not sure
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Waaaaaaait lol
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So the Cabinet is *elected*
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: or *appointed*?
[9:43] Jon Seattle: I was assuming elected.
[9:43] Moon Adamant: if anyone can get to become Guildmeister
[9:43] Moon Adamant: ellected, of course
[9:43] Moon Adamant: see?
[9:43] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Switzerland: only country in the world where the Cabinet is elected On the rest of the world, the winner of the general elections appoints the cabinet.
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: be it a person, or a party
[9:44] Moon Adamant: oh
[9:44] Moon Adamant: so tell me now how are Guildmeisters chosen?
[9:44] Jon Seattle: We elect people for all sorts of positions here. I jas heard a speach from the woman who was elected to run the water system!
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok Moon — but you're assuming that the Guild, right now, is "the Cabinet"
[9:44] Gwyneth Llewelyn: while it isn+t.
[9:44] Moon Adamant: that's just the thing!
[9:44] Moon Adamant: nobody is Cabinet!
[9:45] Moon Adamant: and we have a structure with a HUGE ammount of power which i haven't yet been able to understand how it is chosen!
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Exactly, Moon
[9:45] Jon Seattle: Agrees.
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's not chosen...
[9:45] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It's a corporative structure
[9:45] Moon Adamant: my point then
[9:45] Moon Adamant:
[9:46] Patroklus Murakami: sorry, phone
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well I do agree that it's not a good idea.
[9:46] Jon Seattle: It is ment to be a meritocracy I think, technical knowledge
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But originally, there was this overall notion:
[9:46] Moon Adamant: wb Pat
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, not really, Jon
[9:46] Lee Dimsum: /ring
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: (hi Lee!)
[9:46] Moon Adamant: hello Lee
[9:46] Lee Dimsum: hello
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok... so, we had 3 branches
[9:46] Lee Dimsum: may i enter?
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Each works differently
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: RA is democratically elected
[9:46] Jon Seattle: Sure Lee
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: does legislation
[9:46] Lee Dimsum: hello everyone
[9:46] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Then we have SC, which is a meritocracy
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Does judicial thungies and constitutional thingies
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And finally, we have the Guild
[9:47] Jon Seattle smiles at Lee, have a seat
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: free to join
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: does building authority and finances
[9:47] Moon Adamant: ... and can be vetoed by SC *remebers the Guardian Angel of Constitution thingy*
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well yes, then you have all sorts of power balancing structures
[9:47] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But the idea is: one you're elected to, one you're invited to, one is free to join.
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: caught up. that was my understaNDING too gqyn
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: *gwyn
[9:48] Moon Adamant: Gwyn
[9:48] Patroklus Murakami: hi lee
[9:49] Moon Adamant: my proposal here is... it should be a bit more democratic
[9:49] Jon Seattle: Hi Lee : )
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aye, Moon, I know
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: So, slowly replacing the "three branches, three systems" thingy
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: i'm afraid i'm going to sound like Ulrika for a moment here...
[9:49] Patroklus Murakami: jsut because democracty is good..
[9:49] Gwyneth Llewelyn: by a "many branches, one process (a democratic one" thingy
[9:50] Moon Adamant: yes Pat?
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: does not mean that more democracy is good
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Well Patroklus, I'm also a suspect here, hehe
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: the fact that the three branches are different
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because I was one of the first to agree on those 3 systems, actually
[9:50] Patroklus Murakami: is a strength not a weakness
[9:50] Moon Adamant: but Pat
[9:50] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Although I did *expect* the Guild to have an inner procedure, which never happened.
[9:51] Patroklus Murakami: i can see a case for guild reform, i'm just not sure how pressing it is
[9:51] Gwyneth Llewelyn: On the other hand, the "fear" of an executive power, which was avoided at the beginning, was probably unfounded.
[9:51] Moon Adamant: processes can be made more democratic, and you cna still keep teh differences
[9:51] Moon Adamant: ah
[9:51] Moon Adamant: who was afraid of an executive power?
[9:52] Moon Adamant: but pat, say you vote for RA in one way, and for SC in another completely different one
[9:52] Patroklus Murakami: no vote for teh SC!
[9:52] Jon Seattle: I think we need to make sure that the Guild can run, no matter who is leading it. Most imporant, since they do much of the real work needed to run the sim.
[9:52] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Moon, ulrika was
[9:53] Moon Adamant: why not Pat?
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: they're like judges. yoiu don't elect them
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: many rep democracies have unelected bodies
[9:53] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, Jon, the Guild is what I call the "bureaucracy" — no real "power" except administrative one! But we all know that the true power is in the administrative
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: the european commision, the uk house of lords
[9:53] Jon Seattle smiles at Gwyn "it is!"
[9:53] Patroklus Murakami: there can be good reasons for having unelected bodies
[9:53] Moon Adamant: and we have our judiciary here unlected as well - only we have 4 branches, 3 of which are elected
[9:54] Patroklus Murakami: but u need to have elected ones to balance them
[9:54] Lee Dimsum: which is the 4th one?
[9:54] Moon Adamant: president of Republic
[9:54] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ah, I think she meant "RL here", Lee
[9:54] Moon Adamant: yes, RL here
[9:54] Jon Seattle smiles
[9:54] Moon Adamant: yes Pat
[9:54] Moon Adamant: but you see?
[9:55] Moon Adamant: atm i am not 100% sure if the RA can indeed balance the two other powers out
[9:55] Jon Seattle: I have two questions, that mighr clear a couple of issues before going back to the Guild.
[9:55] Moon Adamant: and that is my real issue, when you go for teh short of it
[9:55] Patroklus Murakami: well, the RA is teh only body with the power to pass legislation, that's a big powere
[9:55] Moon Adamant: but the SC can veto it in a whim
[9:56] Moon Adamant: and how do you insure that Guild is enforcing it?
[9:56] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The SC can only veto on *constitutional* matters
[9:56] Jon Seattle: me nods
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: A bill that is not unconstitutional passes without dispute (the SC does not even have the power to review it)
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: perhaps there is some common ground we can all agree on?
[9:57] Jon Seattle: Yes!
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: the guild should be open to any citizen
[9:57] Jon Seattle raises his hands
[9:57] Jon Seattle: hand LOL
[9:57] Moon Adamant: hmmm, gwyn, referendum?
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hmm?
[9:57] Gwyneth Llewelyn is confused
[9:57] Patroklus Murakami: the guild should hold an election for guildmaster once every six months
[9:58] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What was that about the referendum, and Jon is raising a hand?
[9:58] Jon Seattle: yes.
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: the guild should have rules of procedure, like the other branches of govnt
[9:58] Patroklus Murakami: sorry jon, go ahead
[9:58] Jon Seattle: No problem. Question 1. Gwyn, are you happy with how the SC functions.
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No, it should have more power!
[9:59] Jon Seattle laughs
[9:59] Patroklus Murakami: lol!
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just joking
[9:59] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I think that the SC "rules by terror", but has no real power.
[9:59] Moon Adamant: hmmmmm
[9:59] Jon Seattle: Yes. But would you reform it in any way?
[9:59] Moon Adamant: i don't agree, but ok
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Seriously now... there should be the notion of a "vote of no confidence"
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that should be an amendment
[10:00] Patroklus Murakami: i'd leave it as it is
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That way you wouldn't need to impeach the SC
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Just remove the confidence,
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the SC member would have to leave the SC
[10:00] Moon Adamant: how?
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: That way, the SC would be just an advisory body, all power would be in the hands of the RA, and issue closed.
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: How?
[10:00] Jon Seattle: I want to pin down, if we can that we do or do not want to change the SC, so we can talk separatly about legislative and executive branches.
[10:00] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Right now, Moon
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: to become a member of the SC, you need to pass two votes of confidence, after an appopintment
[10:01] Jon Seattle: Yes, I agree.
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: But that vote of confidence is "forever"
[10:01] Moon Adamant: hmmmm
[10:01] Gwyneth Llewelyn: It could be valid for one term only (one of my early proposals)
[10:01] Patroklus Murakami: so u wd give the RA or guild the power to remove individual SC members?
[10:02] Moon Adamant: so i can get into SC, run away with teh city piggy bank, and still have confidence?
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Pat — the Guild has, indeed, to elect a new Guildmeister every 6 months (that's in the Constitution as well)
[10:02] Patroklus Murakami: brb
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: No Moon
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Since the city piggy bank is in the Guild
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: AND
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: for that reason,
[10:02] Moon Adamant: oh, i would steal it cunningly
[10:02] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the RA can impeach the SC
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the SC has aboslutely no power to "resist" a block impeachment
[10:03] Jon Seattle: Gwyn, perhaps you could write up your proposal. You may want to send in anonynously, given your role. But I think we need to include it in the program.
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Oh, my proposal is rather simple, but you're right
[10:03] Gwyneth Llewelyn: I would just change the notion of the Guild
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and I'm for a Cabinet, nominated by the leader of the winning party on the elections
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: who would be the executive,
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: and the "current Guild" would be the Administrative
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the Civil Service!
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Now
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We, as good social-democrats, want to empower the workers
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: so there should be a Guild nevertheless
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: not part of Government
[10:04] Moon Adamant: hmmm *raises hand*
[10:04] Gwyneth Llewelyn: but on all *social* issues
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn: the RA and Cabinet should have to agree with the Guild
[10:05] Gwyneth Llewelyn hushes now
[10:05] Moon Adamant: may I?
[10:05] Jon Seattle: I was thinking we could split the task of proposing these things. Gwyn on SC, Moon on Guild, and me on legistative?
[10:05] Jon Seattle listens to Moon "You are the chair!"
[10:05] Patroklus Murakami: moon?
[10:06] Moon Adamant: well, just to make you aware of my standing here
[10:06] Moon Adamant: then you can decide if you'll let me write the proposal bit on Cabinet /Guild
[10:06] Moon Adamant: what i think stems off my personal concepts of what a government is
[10:07] Moon Adamant: a government - i think - has 3 major duties
[10:07] Moon Adamant: sorry, state
[10:07] Moon Adamant: one is passing of legislation
[10:07] Moon Adamant: other is regulation and fiscalization of how is teh legislation is being applied
[10:08] Moon Adamant: and the third is the re-distribution of wealth
[10:08] Patroklus Murakami: eeek! taxes!
[10:08] Jon Seattle laughs "I love the thrird, never try to run for US congress!"
[10:08] Moon Adamant: we can refer 'wealth' here as to those things we have discussed previously - resources, environment, etc
[10:09] Jon Seattle nods
[10:09] Moon Adamant: so
[10:09] Moon Adamant: these duties must be spread amongst the state structures
[10:10] Moon Adamant: RA is obviously the maker of legislation
[10:10] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes so far
[10:10] Jon Seattle: RA is also the cabinet.. together with Guild.
[10:10] Moon Adamant: ah
[10:10] Moon Adamant: but it shouldn't
[10:11] Moon Adamant: that is my point
[10:11] Jon Seattle: I agree 100%
[10:11] Moon Adamant: the regulation and wealth distribution should be clearly constitute the roles of an executive branch
[10:11] Moon Adamant: BUT
[10:11] Moon Adamant: i don't mean here that
[10:11] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Yes, that is a point I also agree.
[10:12] Moon Adamant: everytime you want to rez a prim, the Cabinet goes and does that for you
[10:12] Moon Adamant: i am thinking more like
[10:12] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:12] Moon Adamant: it sets a public contest for proposals, with a clear defining that the cube must not be plywood
[10:12] Moon Adamant: (say)
[10:13] Moon Adamant: and citizen groups - and these INCLUDE the guild - can propose theit ideas
[10:13] Moon Adamant: am i making sense or going fuzzy?
[10:13] Gwyneth Llewelyn: The biggest issue, then, will be to separate executive powers and RA powers.
[10:13] Jon Seattle: I think you are making sense.
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: What is legislation passed by RA, and what is passed by the Cabinet
[10:14] Jon Seattle: Exactly.
[10:14] Moon Adamant: well
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Or: Cabinet proposes bills, RA makes them into laws.
[10:14] Moon Adamant: yes Gwyn
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And Cabinet executes them.
[10:14] Moon Adamant: say a Cabinet proposes a new covenant
[10:14] Gwyneth Llewelyn: In that case, there will be no more citizens proposing bills?
[10:14] Moon Adamant: RA ratifies that
[10:14] Moon Adamant: oh they can, why not?
[10:14] Jon Seattle: Here is what I think.. may be out of the box.
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Because Cabinet proposes Bills?
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami is worried by the discussion so far
[10:15] Jon Seattle: I want the factions to be the ones thinking of proposals at the grass roots.
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: /lme listens to Jon
[10:15] Moon Adamant: oh why Pat?
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And why worried, Pat??
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: well, there's a lot to take in. i need time to process it...
[10:15] Jon Seattle listends to Pat
[10:15] Patroklus Murakami: but i'm a constitutional conservative
[10:15] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Aaah yes.
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: hehe
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: what ain't broke, u don't fix
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Me too, but that doesn't mean that some changes have to fit in.
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: what problem are we trying to solve here?
[10:16] Jon Seattle: I think that we should do more of this thinking on the forum..
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: And the Guild is "broken". It depends too much on having nice Guildmasters.
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: We have had 2 so far who were particularly nice.
[10:16] Patroklus Murakami: i'm concerned that we may get too caught up in constitutinal discussion
[10:16] Gwyneth Llewelyn: True, lol
[10:16] Moon Adamant: well, Pat, i warned i was going to be a radical, lol
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: and neglect a programme of action for the election
[10:17] Patroklus Murakami: sorry to be a wet blanket \
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: Ok, so the question is — will that constitutional discussion happen *before* elections (ie. presenting solid proposals, like the DPU has done to win the past elections)...
[10:17] Gwyneth Llewelyn: ... or will we just propose guidelines, to be discussed during the term?

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[10:17] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I think we need two discussions, one for constitiutional issues, and a second for initiatives.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:17] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: we are a community of 30, maybe this is a future rather than a current conncern?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:18] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: hmmmm[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: The DPU will make making constitutional proposals. Though mainy concerning a federation.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:18] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Ah, interesting piece of advice![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:18] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: We also need to make sure things continue to run here. I am a bit worried about the latter.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:19] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i think that if we will be propose changes to constitution we should state why we're doing it, and what are our proposals[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:19] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes, claude has been v focussed on thinkgint about future expansion[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:19] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: me too, lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:19] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and that was my second issue[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:19] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: which i think can go more programmatic[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:20] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'd like to propose for your consideration[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:20] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: that the actual represenativity scheme in RA[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:20] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: be altered[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:20] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Just in terms of process I would rather cut and paste ideas together from forum messages, than try to put them together here.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:20] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: so that you'd have 2 kinds of reps[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:21] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: circle reps - attached geographically to electoral circles - and hmmm 'general' reps[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:21] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: say that teh balance is always[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:21] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: general= circles +1[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:22] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: this way it would allow the RA to expand smoothly as teh territory expands[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:22] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: it would also make two different *chambers* inside only one[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:22] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Lets figure out a list of topics we would like to study, and split the work.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:22] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: is that the same as teh senate idea? one per sim as per claude's forum post[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:23] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Senate would be a separate chamber[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:23] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: no, not really[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:23] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: But actually, I'm against it. We can't even get *5* people on *one* chamber to meet regularly![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:23] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: this is more to allow that citizen groups that are not political factions can have representativity[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:23] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami thinks Gwyn has made a good point![/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Yes, Moon's idea is a bit different than a "senate"[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: okay. there are other ways to allow representationwithout factions[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: More to bring people from future sims (and even from the current one!) in touch with the people of the area they live in.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: indeed[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Oooh Patroklus[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i've resisted mentionning it before now[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: This would not eliminate factions,[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: oh?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: factions would also run for circles[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: oh, it wouldn't![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:24] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Also, hmm[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: One thing we predicted long ago[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: ok. i thnk i understand [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: is that people would rotate a lot at the RA,[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: like it's happening now.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: So, people should vote for a programme and a faction enforcing that programme,[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: since you couldn't trust people to remain long at the RA.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: That was one of our best predictions.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:25] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I hear three topics: 1. Federation Structure 2. Guild / Cabinet Reform 3. Citizen Participation in Planning[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:26] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Aye, Jon, although I tend to think that "Federation" is really pointless, unless we start to have around 500 people or so...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:26] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: I'd limit it to "area representation"[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:26] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I agree with you. It may make sense to have some proposal to match DPU's however.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:26] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: ie. one government, but RA members would come from different areas.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:26] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: what would the unit of area be? i'm having trouble understanding that[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Well, a "large part of a sim" [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Right now, for instance[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: we could have 3 members elected by all people in the RA[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: and one from 2 areas[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: each[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:27] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: So, say, "outside walls" and "inside walls"[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: so yoiu'd proposed dividing an electorate of 30 into smaller groups? I don't understand why we would need to do that. it only makes sense when we have more than one sim[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: or "west n'burg" and "east n'burg", whatever works best.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Yes, that could also be more reasonable, Pat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes Pat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: 1 for N'burg, 1 for Colonia Nova[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: and 3 directly elected.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: this is a situation to accomodate for when CN is set[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: ok, i cd go along with that[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:28] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Should come up soon, anyway.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I actually prefer proportional representation.. from my experience in the US our geographic system has some real problems.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yup, i'd say till end of year[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: Jon, that is a good point[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: phone brb[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Well that would be another possibility, Jon, although administratively, it's easier to set it up for "primary area of residence" [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: which we can discuss[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:29] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: you see that my main fear here was[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: And Moon — Colonia Nova may come sooner than expected.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: when CN plan was presented[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: back.. missed phone answering machine will handle it.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: there was talk that it would only be represented by a Guild officer[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: the Praetor[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: now[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: proconsul? Whatever ...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: this is very unfair[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: my understanding waws that CN would be part of nburg's democracy[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:30] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: It will be, yes, Pat.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: the praetor wd be the local guild rep[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Yes.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: That's how it's going to be right now — unless we wish to change it,[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: but inside a confedation[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: by allowing residents in N'burg to vote for 1 rep, and residents in CN for another one, and all citizens for 3 reps[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:31] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:32] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Similar to the German & Swiss systems [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:32] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: You get 2 votes,[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:32] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: one for your local rep, one for the RA.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:32] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: The vote for RA would be the regular vote you have now.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:32] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: so, the differennce from claudes' proppsal wd be 1)one body 2)total number of reps stays the same[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: The local rep would be an individual vote, so, non-aligned, independent citizens *could* apply (although factions would also have reps for each local area)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: but teh total number of reps will increase as we expand in population[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Yes, Pat.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Yes yes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: This is for a population for up to 50[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: or 51, I think[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: gotcha[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: then the RA goes up to 7 seats[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes Pat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:33] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and you can grow infinetely lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: 4 direct, and probably 3 reps (we'd have to fight for the odd one, though )[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: because you just add local+1 for general reps[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: or eventually 5 directm and 1 from each sim as before.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well, you can make provisions so you don't get the even numbers[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes Moon[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: now i had another idea here[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: the easiest way is always to have 1 rep per sim, approximately 1 per 30 people.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:34] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Perhaps, four topics: 1. Federation Structure; 2. Guild / Cabinet Reform; 3. Citizen Participation in Planning; 4. Economic and Educational Development[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'd say one from each sim and the rest elected directly[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: aaah cool overview, Jon![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: to ensure that the politics get LIVELY[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: ty jon[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: there's one problem tho...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: the scheme u propose will favour big parties[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:35] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and which is: do not elect local at same time than general... dephase their mandates[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: if u have a majority in both sims[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: hmmm, i see what you mean[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: u get 2 out of 3 seats[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: and teh two local seates[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: it cd give a popular party more powere[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: but at same time you can also have independent reps, right?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes, that's also[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:36] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: tru![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:37] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: imagine that CN citizens, say, think that the parties are too much linked to NA concerns[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:37] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: so they'd favour local independent[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: in a small electorate like ours there si more scope for independat candidates[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: (sorry, typinng is getting worse!)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: That mostly depends on how good the parties are in promoting their programmes [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: If they're lazy, that will give a chance for the independents to get elected.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:38] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yup lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: If they're good, people will want their local reps to be aligned with the party.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: also i think this adds a nice leement of surprise to the whole thing [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: hehe[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and will, i hope, make citizens feel that they are more participative[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: It's always a surprise (or has been so far!)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:39] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: or that they can be participants[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:40] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: In any case, I think that this proposal is rather "peaceful" in the sense that most people will like it, and it will not be too confusing.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:40] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: independently of political game which a lot of people dislike[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:40] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i like the idea of 'locality' (at a reasonable scale) and keeping numbers down - don't need too many gov officials [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:40] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: on the other hand, the Cabinet thingy... oh my oh my [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:40] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:41] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: of course that we must reach consensus here[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:41] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and i'll defend that consensus[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:41] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: We might have to settle just on "changing the role of RA and Guild to create a separate Executive Branch, and an Administrative Branch, through a constitutional change" and leave it at that.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:41] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: but i must tell you fairly that for me, i'd re-write a good deal of constitution, lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: shall we thrash out the rest of this on the forums? are we happy to hold the discussion there?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Gah. LOL[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Well, I won't disagree, it has been a productive meeting in any case.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i think that there is a political interest as of posting this localrep thing immediately[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:42] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: How about the four topics. Do we want to each study one and post our thoughts?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: sounds like a good plan [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: BTW guys, RA meeting is today at 7:30 PM[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: and yes, the name will be selected *today*[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i agree Jon[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Tomorrow it'll all change — LOL[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i think you should take the Cabinet/Guild thingy out of my hands, lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:43] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Who wants which topic?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: 1. Federation Structure; 2. Guild / Cabinet Reform; 3. Citizen Participation in Planning; 4. Economic and Educational Development[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: but moon, it makes sense for you to tackle the one you're interested in[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'm not sure i could do it credit[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: hehe yes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well, but i can go ranting over it, lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:44] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and drooling...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: I'd change the "Federation structure" to "Republic structure"...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I am most intersted in 3 and 4.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i can try and tackle it taking in mind your objections[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Republic is fine![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes to gwyn's suggestion[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: ok Gwyn[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Just to make it different from the DPU's proposal.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'm not going to have too much time to devote to this this week. can i back out of taking one of these?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:45] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Sure.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'd like to think a bit more about the programme we present to voters and what concerns they want addresses[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:46] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: (guess it might be an idea for me to ask some!)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:46] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: lol Pat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: that would actually a very good thing [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Oh yes![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: That's excellent.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: An open meeting with the citizens & voters [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I talked to a vistor the other day. Had trouble explaing the empty shops in the square. I know there are a number of related concerns there..[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: pre-campaigning, hehe[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: btw, i have already began to try and proselityze[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: good for u moon![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:47] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: but with very little success [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: no lol pat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: it was very frustrating [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: See, Jon, the "empty shops" are one thing that we need to address — there has been an approval for selling them AGES ago. It was not even on the current term, but the *previous* one![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'll approach some nburg voters one to one[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: and let u know what happens[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: That seems to be a good approach, Pat![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: agrees[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:48] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yup Pat [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:49] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: now, about Jon's suggestion[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:49] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: hmmm[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:49] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well, i can tackle 1 and 2[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:50] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I am most interested in 3 and 4 and would do that. Are we okay with leaving the SC as it is for now? Except as it involves the other topics.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:50] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: but i'll ask for you revision/cleaning the drool out of it [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:50] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I am sure my thoughts will need revison as well![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:50] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes, ok [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:50] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: hehe fine with me, although I'd probably like to see the "vote of no confidence" introduced at some point...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle nods[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'm happy to leave SC as is [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i do think teh SC issue is linked really to an enforcement question[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'm going to need to dash soon[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Hmm probably, although the SC has some serious problems on the judiciary bit[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: But well[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: we have another 6 months to discuss that.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:51] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: lol, ok[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I think we need to focus on what is most pressing.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i'll think on that too as a side issue[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well, i do think 3and 4 wil make a major difference[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:52] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: to other programmes[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Indeed they will, and they'll be the core of the "social-democratic" aspect of our programme as well[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: and they're a good field for us to show our social-democrat reasoning[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Hmm I can try to think a bit about MoCA and School...[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I agree[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: lol, are you my alt? [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: haha Moon![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:53] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle smiles[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:54] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Perhaps I can ask some questions at some point during the week about those too. I suspect they could be very important in the election.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:54] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Probably, specially for someone like Rubaiyat[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:54] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i do think that MoCA and shops fit in nicely with the festival concept[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: It's a pity we can't get Salzie on "our side" hehe[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: Why not?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: She feels that she has too much responsability towards the "civil service"[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: to be part of the political struggle [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: I like her atitude a lot![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:55] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I know. But she may have some interest in our proposals.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: (well, she IS a civil servant iRL hehe)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: me too![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: But right now she's closely aligned with the MPP [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: oooh[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: It may be a good idea to consult with her a bit, even if she is not directly involved.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: you are Pat? [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Cool, Pat, I had no idea![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I had no idea either.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Oh, asking for her opinion won't hurt, Jon![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: Pat is Sir Humphrey Appleby [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: yup, bureaucrat grade 3[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: lol![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: hehe Moon [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:56] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: LOL[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: yoiu might think that, i couldn't possbly comment [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: ... and hopefully I'll be able to start on the "Monarchist Movement" soon (not a faction!)[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: gwyn for queen![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: naah[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: yup![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:57] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: lol[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: Actually, I *have* announced 18 months ago, that I would promote the institution of N'burg as a Constitutional monarchy [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: hehe[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: but i would patiently wait until things became more stable politically[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][i:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle laughs[/i:34ypw8w5][/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: i think you'd have a problem of sucession, though[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: I need to go soon.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: when do u think nburg will be stable? 2020?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: The purpose: on a multi-sim (multi-themed!) nation, have a symbol of national identity[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: unless we'd draw on that roman costume of adoption[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:58] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: jon, me too[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: shall we draw matters to a close?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: oh, fine by me[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:34ypw8w5]: [/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: yes.[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: i think we all have actions to take fwd[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkSlateBlue:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Jon Seattle[/b:34ypw8w5]: We do![/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Patroklus Murakami[/b:34ypw8w5]: do we need to review them?[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: indeed[/color:34ypw8w5]
[10:59] [color=Sienna:34ypw8w5][b:34ypw8w5]Moon Adamant[/b:34ypw8w5]: well better[/color:34ypw8w5]

[Gwyneth Llewelyn]

[10:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3f8a24bo]: who is posting the chat log and minutes?[/color:3f8a24bo]
[10:59] [color=Sienna:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Moon Adamant[/b:3f8a24bo]: i can do that[/color:3f8a24bo]
[10:59] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3f8a24bo]: ty moon:)[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=Sienna:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Moon Adamant[/b:3f8a24bo]: well, if you feed me the chat log, that is[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3f8a24bo][i:3f8a24bo]Jon Seattle smiles at moon[/i:3f8a24bo][/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=DarkGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3f8a24bo]: Ah, good point.[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=DarkGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3f8a24bo]: Are we officially "off"?[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=Sienna:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Moon Adamant[/b:3f8a24bo]: just closing it, Gwyn[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=DarkGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3f8a24bo]: And this transcript goes to the CSDF group forum, right?[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=Sienna:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Moon Adamant[/b:3f8a24bo]: and kk for the chat log to be cut down now[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:00] [color=DarkOliveGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Patroklus Murakami[/b:3f8a24bo]: i think so. i'll copy the chat log now[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:01] [color=DarkSlateBlue:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Jon Seattle[/b:3f8a24bo]: yes.[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:01] [color=DarkGreen:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Gwyneth Llewelyn[/b:3f8a24bo]: me too[/color:3f8a24bo]
[11:01] [color=Sienna:3f8a24bo][b:3f8a24bo]Moon Adamant[/b:3f8a24bo]: yes[/color:3f8a24bo]