Calling anyone who is an attorney

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Sudane Erato
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Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Sudane Erato »

LL has just alerted many or all of us... not sure who got this email... that the TOS relating to $$ in SL is changing. The new version is published here:

https://www.tilia-inc.com/legal/tos/?ut ... 6-74189085

Although any normal person reading this will find it impenetrable... and that includes me... since there is no mention of L$ accounts and/or US$ accounts such as you see on your profile on the website, it's clear that they are talking about us. L$s are referred to as Virtual Tokens, and the US$ account we each have is referred to as your Stored Value Balance.

There are significant issues embedded in this new TOS, which have impact on the extent to which we own our own money. Especially disturbing is the ambiguity around Stored Value Balance... in other words, your US$s. I think its fairly clear that they are not really yours.

But this is why we could REALLY use some legal eyes on this document. One person I've spoken to has even suggested that merely holding a balance in EITHER your L$ account OR your US$ account could conceivably expose you to a lien from an LL creditor should LL neglect to pay its bills. That's a scary thought.

Anyway, if anyone reading this is an attorney with some knowledge of these things, or knows someone who is, please consider chiming in with your thoughts.

Sudane......................

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Sudane Erato »

The thread about this topic on the SL Forums is already 11 pages long, with very few questions answered. Here it is:

https://community.secondlife.com/forums ... akes-over/

Aside from the glaring mention of an "Inactivity Fee" which is repeatedly mentioned in the new TOS but never specified anywhere (how much is it?, and how is it applied?), the biggest issue in my mind is the more thorough definition of our "money"... not how much is it worth?, because we've understood that for a long time... but rather, what does it mean to be "our money"? In RL, there's a common understanding of "possession", particularly of one's money... subject to the possible predatations of criminals and governments, "our money" is generally understood to be ours. With this new Tilia TOS, those assumptions don't apply to money in your L$ balance OR your US$ balance. Those monies remain, in general, LL property, in my reading of this new TOS, and only at their discretion will LL give you any of it.

I think that we look at our community money as somehow ours. In light of this new arrangement, we might want to look at that again.

Sudane.........................

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Han Held »

Here's the thread over at VirtualVerse One (nee' SLUniverse), which might help (or at least isn't 11 pages long :lol: )
https://www.virtualverse.one/forums/thr ... -blog.3815

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Lyubov »

I am not an attorney and I do not play one on tv ...

I read through the blog post yesterday (only 2 pages at that point) and the entirety of the very sparse Tilia website. Indeed, while an "inactivity fee" to the "extent permitted by applicable law" is suggested, there is no posted "fee schedule" as referenced in their ToS. I would expect this fee to be similar to that of a pre-paid debit or gift card (a "stored value card"), intended to draw down the balance of funds on inactive cards. The CARD Act of 2009 might give some relevant protections, as well as state law; I am unclear which state's law Tilia may use for this purpose (ie. California is used for governing law, but California generally does not allow gift card fees or expiration dates, so it is possible that another state's "money transfer agent" or "payment processing service" laws are being used by Tilia). The CARD Act does specify that fees must be disclosed in advance (see, "fee schedule") and that cards may not expire less than five years from the last active date.

A "good intent" reading of the blog post suggests that nothing really changes for SL. Only US $ accounts are affected. Tilia administers these US $ accounts. Due to US "know your customer" financial compliance regulations, Tilia will act more like a traditional bank (Tilia, like Paypal, it not a "bank") in this regard, and will require more detailed personal information before US $ funds may be withdrawn from SL into "real" money, ie. "process credit" to Paypal or Skrill.

This "process credit" fee was recently doubled, effective 24 June, from 2.5% to 5.0%. I suspect that this foreshadowed the impact of Tilia's entrance. Recall, LL said this increase was to offset, "increased regulatory and compliance costs", ie. Tilia.

LL states that Tilia only affects US $ funds and "process credit" transfers of US $ funds out of SL. This should not affect US $ purchases of L$ or L$ account balances.

Sudane, please correct me if anything I state in the following paragraph is incorrect:

In CDS, we maintain only a relatively small US $ account balance, sufficient to pay LL our tier; the balance of funds remains as L$. Each month, we pay Rudeen L$ via the parcel tierboxes, then Rudeen converts the L$ sum required to pay LL tier in US $. It is this US $ balance that would be subject to a potential "inactivity fee"; in our case, these funds are regularly accessed each month to pay LL. This regular conversion incurs a flat 3.5% transaction fee. This is separate from the "process credit" fee. CDS does not withdraw funds out of SL into a Paypal account, so "process credit" does not affect us at this time. I would however not be surprised to see the L$ to US $ conversion fee of 3.5% also increase in the near future, to "help offset increased regulatory and compliance costs" of Tilia managing these US $ accounts going forward.

An entirely separate issue, not mentioned specifically in the LL blog post, but raised by a reading of the Tilia Terms of Service, does concern both L$ and US $ funds. Tilia refers to "Virtual Tokens", which I take to mean L$. Tilia states that Virtual Tokens have no (zero) "stored value" in themselves; only the Platform (Linden Lab) may offer an exchange of L$ to US $. This implies that any loss of L$ is not "real". There is language in the ToS that states that both Virtual Tokens (L$) and Stored Value (US $) account services are provided "as-is". This means "no warranty, no recourse" if things go wrong, whether a database loses data, the account holder cannot be properly verified to perform a "process credit", or Tilia absconds with the funds (ie. Bitcoin exchange thefts).

Another section that caught my eye in the ToS is "Assignment". Tilia does not allow this. I read this to mean that in CDS, the Treasurer may not "assign" the US $ (or L$?) account balance to another person. With a "normal" bank account, I may hold this as a "joint account" and the other party may withdraw funds as they wish; or a "payable on death" beneficiary may be designated, entitling the beneficiary to the funds. I do not know how or if this would impact procedures already in place in CDS.

What does this mean for CDS, today, from my personal perspective?

  • "Process Credit" does not affect us, because we do not withdraw US $ from SL

  • We may expect to see the L$ to US $ transaction fee increase above the current 3.5%

  • "Inactivity Fee" does not affect us, given how funds are presently managed

  • We may wish to reconsider where and how CDS Reserves are kept.

Just a few weeks ago, the RA considered a stylistic update (of "city" to "CDS") for the Financial Reserves Act. Sudane pointed out in a Forum post, http://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9023 that CDS funds are kept in two L$ accounts (avatars). While I was considering language to update the Act to more accurately reflect the Treasurer's "best practices", it quickly became clear that the Treasurer Act and Estate Owner Act would also be affected.

Given the entrance of Tilia and their stated ToS, we must now ask, "Is it still desirable to maintain all of CDS' accumulated reserves in L$ accounts?". A "safe" approach may be to withdraw L$ reserves out of SL and instead maintain these sums in a "real" bank account. However, doing so would incur significant costs, both in financial and procedural terms. For example, converting the accumulated L$ reserve to US $ would first incur a 3.5% conversion fee, then again another 5% "process credit" fee to withdraw the sum from SL. As a process matter, the Treasurer would perhaps set up a separate US $ bank account (ie. a "real" account at a "real" bank such as Chase or Citibank) to hold the funds, a significant process itself and not fee-free. Further, making the funds available again to SL, through the US $ purchase of L$ also incurs a small (US $1.49 per transaction) fee. Finally within CDS, many of our laws and processes would be affected.

We may choose to continue "business as usual". We should however be aware of the risks (ie. L$ have "no value" and Tilia's services are "without warranty") and have a plan in place if things do change. Unfortunately, long-tail events such as "data loss" or "exchange theft" are difficult to foresee.

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The new money order in SL, Tilia

Post by Sudane Erato »

Whew! Lyubov... you may be no lawyer, but you have provided, in detail and at length, a thorough analysis of the Tilia terms and an excellent summary of the issues that we ought to consider as a community. I have only a couple of issues that might be added. All your statements regarding our current procedures are correct. Thank you!

In fact, your premonition that the "Sell Fee" of 3.5% might be raised gives me HUGE concern, as that will immediately gobble up the benefits of the tier rate reductions that LL has just put in place. I DEARLY hope your premonition is wrong.

I've read the TOS a number of times now since I first posted, and I've read the forums. I think your analysis of the new order is correct, although I would add people's attention to the TOS statement that transfer of money from a US$ account, what they call "Stored Value Balance", to an external account such as Paypal, the process they call "Process Credit", is entirely and totally subject to their whim... they allow it or deny it with no recourse. This is why I think we should closely consider the issue of what in fact is "our money". This, and also the issue you raise regarding the zero value of L$s... or "Virtual Tokens".

An entirely separate issue, not mentioned specifically in the LL blog post, but raised by a reading of the Tilia Terms of Service, does concern both L$ and US $ funds. Tilia refers to "Virtual Tokens", which I take to mean L$. Tilia states that Virtual Tokens have no (zero) "stored value" in themselves; only the Platform (Linden Lab) may offer an exchange of L$ to US $. This implies that any loss of L$ is not "real". There is language in the ToS that states that both Virtual Tokens (L$) and Stored Value (US $) account services are provided "as-is". This means "no warranty, no recourse" if things go wrong, whether a database loses data, the account holder cannot be properly verified to perform a "process credit", or Tilia absconds with the funds (ie. Bitcoin exchange thefts).

Another section that caught my eye in the ToS is "Assignment". Tilia does not allow this. I read this to mean that in CDS, the Treasurer may not "assign" the US $ (or L$?) account balance to another person. With a "normal" bank account, I may hold this as a "joint account" and the other party may withdraw funds as they wish; or a "payable on death" beneficiary may be designated, entitling the beneficiary to the funds. I do not know how or if this would impact procedures already in place in CDS.

I totally agree. These are serious concerns that we should be aware of.

I agree with your 4 bullet points.

And finally, the meat of the matter is in your almost final words....

Given the entrance of Tilia and their stated ToS, we must now ask, "Is it still desirable to maintain all of CDS' accumulated reserves in L$ accounts?". A "safe" approach may be to withdraw L$ reserves out of SL and instead maintain these sums in a "real" bank account. However, doing so would incur significant costs, both in financial and procedural terms. For example, converting the accumulated L$ reserve to US $ would first incur a 3.5% conversion fee, then again another 5% "process credit" fee to withdraw the sum from SL. As a process matter, the Treasurer would perhaps set up a separate US $ bank account (ie. a "real" account at a "real" bank such as Chase or Citibank) to hold the funds, a significant process itself and not fee-free. Further, making the funds available again to SL, through the US $ purchase of L$ also incurs a small (US $1.49 per transaction) fee. Finally within CDS, many of our laws and processes would be affected.

I have not done the calculation lately, but I will guess that our total cash reserves are in the neighborhood of US$12,000. One to two months tier is stored in our US$ account (Rudeen), perhaps US$2000. The remainder is stored in two L$s accounts (Rudeen and LadyJane). We have discussed this structure in the far distant past, and I'd be very happy to discuss it again. Many reasons exist to doing it this way instead of converting to "RL money" as you hypothesize, not least is the reason you explain... the incredible expense.

But the new Tilia system brings the matter into the harsh light, and it would probably be very good to air all the issues here again in a public discussion, taking what steps were agreed upon to make changes if necessary.

Thank you Lyubov!

Sudane.................

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Lyubov »

Indeed, it may be impractical to withdraw L$ reserves into a US $ bank account. A Linden Lab blog post from February alerted Residents that US tax form 1099-K may be issued to those exceeding "L$ sale transactions with a total amount of gross proceeds in excess of $20,000 in a calendar year". I am unclear whether this means "L$ to L$ transactions", "converting L$ to US $ to pay LL tier", or only "process credit" where funds are withdrawn out of SL entirely.

If the withdrawal of CDS Reserves into US $ outside of SL would generate "taxable income", an additional 50% could be lost to federal, state, and city taxes on this "income"; attempts to mitigate this would only incur additional time and expense.

We may find that the current process in place is the best that we can do under these circumstances.

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Hey I am back from the psychward... they did not want me any longer ;) Their cognitive behavior therapy "would you please get up for the morning sport exercise, Mx. Milestone?" stopped working the other day :D I will start to work again coming week.

To the point: I believe the Lindens try to avoid being accountable for any losses with those tilia tos rules. This would be the case if they go bankrupt, if there is a mass exodus from SL and in some way even if they just want to shut down second life. This list of horror senarios is not complete - we may want to have a plan if we are forced to withdraw the CDS funds from second life.

So we are back to another old discussion - setting up a friendly society in RL as another tool of our community, that is not ment to take over CDS, but serve as a saveguard. If you want I can order a book about that, it is "Friendly Societies for Dummies":D. My last housing Co-Op was a friendly society, it is quite easy to get the cheapest version in terms of taxes. I already know there are only 4 members necessary - people who have no problem coming out with their RL identity. According to german law, that is. I believe german law is quite friendly when it comes to such projects, but we would have to pick the jurisdiction of course.

I would like to stress that I do not want the CDS change into a RL entity. Citizens should always be able to keep their anonymity, even if they serve in high offices.

The "friendly society" could hold the CDS funds in case of an emergency. In my vision it would be part of the executive, dealing with RL things (owl mugs and t-shirts?). I do not recommend to found one now, I recommend to explore if this would be a good option and how long it would take to "get the lifeboat ready". Possibly we can set one up and let it run while we keep the money where it is at the moment.

This has a positive implication though - it might be a first step to become independent from LL.

Anyone up to talk about that?

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Kyoko »

1. Thank you Sudane for the "heads' up"
2. Thank you Lyubov for the further analysis.
3. Thank you Tan for your proposal. Plenty to mull there, but I would have no problem being a "friendly."

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Tanoujin Milestone »

Thanks, Kyoko, welcome back!
To make it clear and short: if we can get the label "gemeinnützig", that is something like "of common benefit" (fostering of democracy in the web and understanding among nations, promoting the UDHR and so on) the society can have capital up to 20,000 Euro and an income of 5,000 p.a. taxfree. That's my point here.

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Sudane Erato »

A quick note on Tan's proposal. The "friendly society" system system described is far different than the equivalent in the US, a "not-for-profit". In the US such an entity... there are a great number of flavors... is vastly complex to setup and maintain. (I administer 2 of them, one of which I set up many years ago.) So if we took this course I think we'd need to look to the German system. It sounds FAR simpler.

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Kyoko »

Well we ARE Germanic in origin ;)

I suppose it would depend on where Tilla is based, or on getting a number of actual German citizens.

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Lyubov »

Thank you Tan and Sudane -- no doubt, a non-US entity may be better able to accommodate CDS' needs. Tilia itself is California-based, but once funds are released and withdrawn out of SL, Tilia has no role beyond potentially reporting the activity to relevant authorities.

Let us assume that a framework may be devised to withdraw funds from SL at little more than the Linden Lab cost of the transaction (first a 3.5% L$ to US $ conversion fee, then a further 5.0% process credit fee on this amount; this would leave 91.675% of the initial funds available). Now what?

1) When and how should this occur? Some possibilities: as soon as the structure is devised, during a routine process over a period of months or years, when a catastrophe (as measured how?) appears to be imminent?

2) For what purpose? The funds are then "safe" outside of SL, but then what happens? Is the purpose to continue to put money back into SL for as long as the Platform, or reserve funds, allow (see the initial intent of the Financial Reserves Act, and the Region Divestment Act also touches upon this theme)? Is the purpose to use these funds to invest in a new Platform, for the benefit of the remaining Citizens at that time (ie. Sansar, OpenSim, Minecraft)? Is the purpose to liquidate the fund and distribute the proceeds (To whom exactly? Calculated on what basis?)?

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Rosie Gray »

Welcome back Tan, and welcome back Kyoko :)

I am truly grateful for this discussion and especially for Sudane and Lyubov's clear explanations making it understandable.

If we did go the route of the friendly society I think we should have the discussion of what its purpose would be, and what would happen to the funds should SL dissolve. One idea would be to choose some kind of internationally recognized entity that fosters democracy around the world to donate the funds to. Let's hope we never have to do such a thing, but there is that possibility and it would be best to have made some decisions beforehand. Personally, I do not think that dividing up the money to disperse to CDS citizens would be wise. This is not a financial investment, and most of us didn't build up all those funds that we now hold so fragilely in our virtual hands.

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Sudane Erato »

Lyubov wrote: Thu Jul 04, 2019 10:52 am

Thank you Tan and Sudane -- no doubt, a non-US entity may be better able to accommodate CDS' needs. Tilia itself is California-based, but once funds are released and withdrawn out of SL, Tilia has no role beyond potentially reporting the activity to relevant authorities.

This points to an additional complication. Some months ago LL made the announcement that they would be reporting all "Sell L$" transactions over a certain annual threshold to the Internal Revenue Service via what's know here as a 1099 Form. This simply alerts the IRS that the named individual has received the defined amount of money. I raised a concern about this at the time, https://forums.slcds.info/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=8831

They did not proceed to carry through what they announced. Instead, they *probably* (and I say that because I have no personal experience with what they are doing here) submitted 1099s for all US citizens whose "Process Credit" transactions totaled more than the threshold.

Should that be the case, if we removed via the "Process Credit" process significant sums from the CDS reserves, the issuance of a 1099 might be triggered, resulting in the need for the "Process Credit"-or to explain to the IRS why this money was not personal income. I doubt this would be possible.

So... this might mean that the reserves might have to be transferred to a non-USA person for removal from the SL-sphere, with attendant additional expense... and complication.

Sudane.....................

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Re: Calling anyone who is an attorney

Post by Kyoko »

Post from SL Newser on Tilia.

https://slnewser.blogspot.com/2019/07/m ... tilia.html

Thanks Bixyl!

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